Flintlocks and Black Powder

[sportster73hp]

Since this thread is titled Flintlocks and black powder, and since I am complete rookie, I seek some knowledge on the use of black powder. Keep in mind that I am a complete rookie so I am permitted a few more stupid questions. I can't wait to get more powder so I can go do a lot of practicing but for now, I have to save what I have for hunting.

I have read about using two different powders for a charge, one on top of the other. I am assuming that this is done to help ignition and promote the proper pressure to achieve a combined result of velocity and accuracy?

1. What would happen if the two powders (let's say 2F and 3F) were mixed, rather than layered?

Other unrelated questions:

1. I bought what I now know is a marketing mimic gun (Traditions Pa. Pellet) but I have to make the best of it. I was told to use 3F powder because 2F might bridge together preventing powder from getting down close enough to the touch hole. (see drawing) Does this make sense?
2. A gentleman who I believe to be an expert told me that "if he owned my gun" he would drill the two intersecting holes in the breech plug larger and then thread it for an aftermarket touch hole liner to ensure ignition. (see drawing) Does this make sense? Note the shoulder just inside the liner.

View attachment 112773

The duplex load was used to ensure the gun went off when hunting. 2f absorbs moisture slower than 3f or 4f. This theory was discussed before when arguing if 3f or 2f could be used for priming because the 4f was getting wet.
Yes you can mix but the charge may not have the same energy per volume shot to shot

 

[Joemolf]

The duplex load was used to ensure the gun went off when hunting. 2f absorbs moisture slower than 3f or 4f. This theory was discussed before when arguing if 3f or 2f could be used for priming because the 4f was getting wet.
Yes you can mix but the charge may not have the same energy per volume shot to shot

Does anyone use Null B? Thats some pretty powder LOL I only have 1 container 8oz

 

[Erwan]

Does anyone use Null B? Thats some pretty powder LOL I only have 1 container 8oz

I do, le 0B is very easy to find here and almost all shooters have this primer other have only 4Fg...
This is a good primer, but the 0B primer is not fundamentally interesting since the difference with the 4/5Fg PNF4P is minimal, on the other hand the price is high, much more than for the 4/5Fg: we only use it for matches and competitions, most of the time the 4/5Fg does the job perfectly.
- 0B (5 Fg) : 79.50€ (89,72 USD) per pound.
- PNF4P (4/5 Fg): 56.00€ (63.20 USD). per pound.

So: PNF4P (4/5 Fg) on weekdays and OB (5Fg) on Sundays...

Apart from that, nobody here shoots full loads with these powders (even in test or duplex), otherwise shooting would be one of the most expensive sports...

 

[Sun City]

Main charge 2F; pan 4F! Change the pan from time to time in humid conditions....which is here most days!!

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I do, le 0B is very easy to find here and almost all shooters have this primer other have only 4Fg...
This is a good primer, but the 0B primer is not fundamentally interesting since the difference with the 4/5Fg PNF4P is minimal, on the other hand the price is high, much more than for the 4/5Fg: we only use it for matches and competitions, most of the time the 4/5Fg does the job perfectly.
- 0B (5 Fg) : 79.50€ (89,72 USD) per pound.
- PNF4P (4/5 Fg): 56.00€ (63.20 USD). per pound.

So: PNF4P (4/5 Fg) on weekdays and OB (5Fg) on Sundays...

Apart from that, nobody here shoots full loads with these powders (even in test or duplex), otherwise shooting would be one of the most expensive sports...

I can see why you were so previously touchy about powder with those prices , I mean Henry Kranks BP is around £26 / €28. Per lb. Even Swiss £76/kg like €36/lb £20 uk delivery. Since they took away my S2 permit and shotguns I’ll never get an explosive police permit to buy BP Reading utube good consistent BP is not that easy to make but it would bring the price down to £14 kg depending on your source of Potasium nitrate , a whole big interesting subject as the uk had a great number of tumbled down gunpowder mills that my kids climbed around for out massive fleet of ships in days gone by

blue sky and heavy white frost this morning kids skiing in Italy but icy and not much snow but great fun

 

[Stone]

The duplex load was used to ensure the gun went off when hunting. 2f absorbs moisture slower than 3f or 4f. This theory was discussed before when arguing if 3f or 2f could be used for priming because the 4f was getting wet.
Yes you can mix but the charge may not have the same energy per volume shot to shot

I wish I had the money to shoot for hours like I used to. I would love to experiment with flintlocks so I could figure out what works best.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I wish I had the money to shoot for hours like I used to. I would love to experiment with flintlocks so I could figure out what works best.

I wish I could even shoot my flintlocks in the uk Now at 79 just wall hangers. It’s a gunny police state

 

[Stone]

I wish I could even shoot my flintlocks in the uk Now at 79 just wall hangers. It’s a gunny police state

That is just sad!

 

[DuncNZ]

A few things , all powders black or nitro are made with the oxygen needed for combustion built in it's in the form of an oxidizer in the case of BP it is usually Potassium nitrate , otherwise there never would be never could be any consistency in the chemical reaction which takes place when it burns .If it burnt at all.
Meal powder is either the fine powder left over from the manufacture of graded powder , or originally, a mix of the 3 different ingredients which have not been mixed in a mill ,or glazed , this powder used to separate out into its components when transported or carried on a ship of war , the powder in each barrel had to be remixed before use .
SNPE in France make a multi grade powder , which if sieved will give almost all grades =,dust 4F 3F 2F and lumps and is still a very good rifle powder .
The British Lee .303 rifle originally used hard pressed cylinders of BP with a hole up the center, the case was necked after loading . I have used similar pressed powder cylinders in a German made quick load kit for my Remington 44 revolver , drop in the cylinder of powder push on the ball cap and fire . It worked very well .

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I was just re reading how French farmers crops are being ruined by hogs , I could spend weeks in the field culling them in Australia they put a bounty on wild dogs and things to encourage hunting but in France you pay the government a €50 premium for each one shot so just plain EU stupid. No enthusiasm from french hunters Us uk BP shooters need to get together with french farmers , quite how I am not sure, they just need to invite us and we will do our best for them a joint exercise maybe just maybe a french farmer will read this. Of course besides BP love to hunt with my 1890 7.5-53 target martini rifles

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I wish I had the money to shoot for hours like I used to. I would love to experiment with flintlocks so I could figure out what works best.

Are you hinting you are over 70 like many of us poor and retired. Ha ha ha

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I wish I had the money to shoot for hours like I used to. I would love to experiment with flintlocks so I could figure out what works best.

At 78 in a gunny police uk I am stuck with bsa Scorpio pcp pump air guns. My past just wall
hangers now Shotguns taken away by police. Ok it’s better than being in an old peoples home. I burn a bit of BP just for the smell of it in the house and it pisses the wife off to my delight , just cut an apple tree down so I can shoot out to 70 yards but it’s just not the same as per target. Cannot grumble as I hunted in Africa , wow bloody dump Nigeria and no big game to be seen. I shot nothing in 3 years other than a few birds ha ha. Life is hard sometimes ha ha oh please don’t cry it ain’t that bad. Ha ha ha. Love from London uk. Ps. Lived a bit in western Oz and that’s even worse, don’t try to hunt there. Darwin NT seems to be better. Ha ha.

 

[Stone]

Are you hinting you are over 70 like many of us poor and retired. Ha ha ha

Hell no!

I am only 65!

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Hell no!

I am only 65!

Oh that’s amazing. A young lad still , I bought myself a 450-400 double rifle for my 70th and the wife did not moan. Now 78, so have a great life, love from joan and Gordon London

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

Since this thread is titled Flintlocks and black powder, and since I am complete rookie, I seek some knowledge on the use of black powder. Keep in mind that I am a complete rookie so I am permitted a few more stupid questions. I can't wait to get more powder so I can go do a lot of practicing but for now, I have to save what I have for hunting.

I have read about using two different powders for a charge, one on top of the other. I am assuming that this is done to help ignition and promote the proper pressure to achieve a combined result of velocity and accuracy?

1. What would happen if the two powders (let's say 2F and 3F) were mixed, rather than layered?

Other unrelated questions:

1. I bought what I now know is a marketing mimic gun (Traditions Pa. Pellet) but I have to make the best of it. I was told to use 3F powder because 2F might bridge together preventing powder from getting down close enough to the touch hole. (see drawing) Does this make sense?
2. A gentleman who I believe to be an expert told me that "if he owned my gun" he would drill the two intersecting holes in the breech plug larger and then thread it for an aftermarket touch hole liner to ensure ignition. (see drawing) Does this make sense? Note the shoulder just inside the liner.

View attachment 112773

Have you taken the breech plug out to look at it?, the PA Pellet I own uses the "Thunder Dome" Breech plug from some of their inlines (Now I think they've switched to the "Accelerator" Breech Plug), only there's no vent in the rear, and they drilled a hole in the side for the vent. In that case, it's no different than the Manton Chambered breech. So long as the vent is aligned with the pan correctly (AKA: not below the bottom of the pan, like on mine), you shouldn't have any issues with any powder granulation you'd want to use in a .50. The powder chamber on mine is probably .50-.52" in diameter.

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

The early matchlock shooters used black powder meal, dust essentially.
Muzzleloading still caught on!

I honestly think a lot of folks interpretation of what actually goes on in the breech is a little upside down.
Some seem to think higher breech pressure is bad. Why is it? At what point does it suddenly get bad? How can we shoot something without pressure. Who determines good pressure and bad pressure? Crazy notions giving birth to useless questions giving birth to fear but completely unfounded.
Do reasonable men here honestly believe that barrel makers have NOT tested their barrels? Would they not clearly state whether a certain powder type should not be used? Wait, they do! No smokeless type powder. But they don't do the same for 4f!
So what we have is some folk that are elevating themselves above their authority on the subject. They, without a shred of testing are propelling themselves as profits of doom in a vien attempt to impress others. This is obvious by their response when someone comes along and pokes a hole in their theory.
Why do manufacturers put a warning on their barrels BLACK POWDER ONLY?
The primary reason is that a muzzleloader of traditional design is open breeched. It by default has high pressure escaping via the nipple or vent. With the vast choice in speeds of smokeless a much higher pressure can get forced out of the vent. There is a clear risk of fragments of cap, nipple, frizzens and flints being dislodged and causing injury. IT IS NOT THE BARREL WILL BURST PRIMARILY.
For example. Many early breech loading shotguns with only blackpowder proof marks of all barrel types were subjected to nitro proof so as to use the new cartridges emerging on the market and we're successful. Why? Because the breech is sealed!
Sure you can blow a muzzleloader to bits with nitro powder but so can you also do the same to any firearm.
Fill a 50bmg case with bullseye and stand back!
In essence the barrel is not the worry. If its got blackpowder in it there is no concern, irrespective of granulation size.
The experiments have been done. Look up Sam Fadala for one resource. Look up them that have made all manner of firearms from screwed pipe fittings and NO I DO NOT RECOMMEND THAT PRACTICE but it has been mentioned because it emphathises that the barrels on our muzzleloaders are not going to burst.
One other thing I don't get is, why is it OK to use 4f in a small pistol. Or revolver. Often with nipples pointing directly back at the shooter and of thinner chamber wall thickness its OK to use but somehow in a thicker barrelled long gun and of larger bore it becomes mysteriously dangerous!
If anything a larger bore causes a drop in pressure!

The other topsy-turvy notion is of how 4f verses 1f burns, flame fronts and all that blah blah. Some believe that because the larger grains burn slower it is somehow ideal. It's not!
What is ideal is consistency. For consistency we want all the charge alight as quick as possible preferably before added variables start via the projectile starting to move off. Talking in terms of nano seconds here the less variation in timings of complete combustion is crucial to consistency and consistent barrel harmonics. The longer it takes to reach complete combustion just opens the door to more variation in times, pressure development and quite possibly higher and irregular muzzle pressures. In short, most of us are thinking backwards on the subject!
The fact 4f increases breech pressure over courser grades is in fact ideal! It's perfect in fact! It's what we actually need and nothing to fear at all.
My finest grade powder, measured and with the help of zonie we determined was a mix of mostly 4f and some 3f. I have loaded it in a bess and heavy shot loads for years. A 20g (.63) upto 100gns. 12gs a plenty, flint and cap. No issues. Never ever shall I purchase anything courser than 3f again. It was terrible. I would rather use an airgun than that stuff!
Instead of fearing higher pressure from a normal loading procedure for a traditional muzzleloader I say embrace it. Why all the fear? No, why all the unfounded fear?
The only fear to respect when it comes to muzzleloading is a cavity. A gap between powder and ball. In that scenario it matters not one bit what granulation the powder is does it!

In that case, smokeless powder would be the worst propellant ever lol, that's literally how it functions (longer, progressive burn). The larger granules of BP allow you to create more gas, over a longer period of time, with the same peak pressure. Consistency is consistency, you can be inconsistent with 4F or pebble powder just as easily. Also, the reason why you need to be very careful with using smokeless powders (especially slow rifle powders) in a gun with a non-sealed ignition is that you can create very different internal combustion conditions than the powder was intended to operate at. This can lead to excessively high pressures (example: your slow rifle powder needs 25,000psi minimum to burn as intended, in a sealed gun, you get this from the beginning, and the powder progressively burns down the barrel as intended; but in an open gun, it only initially musters say 12,000 psi (due to losses out of the vent), and the powder charge does not burn at the rate it was intended. the powder and bullet is moving down the barrel, the pressure slowly rising... all of a sudden, the pressure starts to rapidly climb, and instead of having 50% of the charge to burn through at this point of firing, you have 90% of the charge to consume... the pressure exponentially climbs, which exponentially increases the rate of burn, which exponentially increases the pressure, ect, ect. Now your load that should have only produced a peak of 30,000 PSI is now running at 150,000 peak. Gun goes boom, they aren't proofed to THAT much more than standard operating pressures). BP is far more forgiving, being an explosive and all, and isn't nearly as sensitive to pressure as most smokeless formulations are.

There is a yield point in gun barrel design lol... the fact that almost all currently produced ML's out there today use laughably overly thick barrels made with modern production methods and materials means that they are capable of handling ridiculous charges. You also have to remember that these guns (we're talking the originals that repro's are based off of) were proofed (with their original twisted iron or "steel" barrels), which means you put a substantially higher pressure load in it to ensure that the gun will hold together under normal operating circumstances. Just because the gun was meant to work at 25,000psi, and you load it to 40,000 psi doesn't mean that you aren't exceeding the intended operating parameters of the barrel design... it just means you haven't exceeded the proof pressures yet lol. It also doesn't mean you are "building a better mousetrap" because you're trying to "red-line" the pressure of your loads lol. In Shotguns, you can also create excessive deformation of the shot when you drastically increase the pressures, not good for performance (it can also increase base erosion and patch burn-through on bullets and PRB).

BP shooting (shooting in general) isn't magic lol. Its not "blah, blah", it kinda matters.

 

[Britsmoothy]

In that case, smokeless powder would be the worst propellant ever lol, that's literally how it functions (longer, progressive burn). The larger granules of BP allow you to create more gas, over a longer period of time, with the same peak pressure. Consistency is consistency, you can be inconsistent with 4F or pebble powder just as easily. Also, the reason why you need to be very careful with using smokeless powders (especially slow rifle powders) in a gun with a non-sealed ignition is that you can create very different internal combustion conditions than the powder was intended to operate at. This can lead to excessively high pressures (example: your slow rifle powder needs 25,000psi minimum to burn as intended, in a sealed gun, you get this from the beginning, and the powder progressively burns down the barrel as intended; but in an open gun, it only initially musters say 12,000 psi (due to losses out of the vent), and the powder charge does not burn at the rate it was intended. the powder and bullet is moving down the barrel, the pressure slowly rising... all of a sudden, the pressure starts to rapidly climb, and instead of having 50% of the charge to burn through at this point of firing, you have 90% of the charge to consume... the pressure exponentially climbs, which exponentially increases the rate of burn, which exponentially increases the pressure, ect, ect. Now your load that should have only produced a peak of 30,000 PSI is now running at 150,000 peak. Gun goes boom, they aren't proofed to THAT much more than standard operating pressures). BP is far more forgiving, being an explosive and all, and isn't nearly as sensitive to pressure as most smokeless formulations are.

There is a yield point in gun barrel design lol... the fact that almost all currently produced ML's out there today use laughably overly thick barrels made with modern production methods and materials means that they are capable of handling ridiculous charges. You also have to remember that these guns (we're talking the originals that repro's are based off of) were proofed (with their original twisted iron or "steel" barrels), which means you put a substantially higher pressure load in it to ensure that the gun will hold together under normal operating circumstances. Just because the gun was meant to work at 25,000psi, and you load it to 40,000 psi doesn't mean that you aren't exceeding the intended operating parameters of the barrel design... it just means you haven't exceeded the proof pressures yet lol. It also doesn't mean you are "building a better mousetrap" because you're trying to "red-line" the pressure of your loads lol. In Shotguns, you can also create excessive deformation of the shot when you drastically increase the pressures, not good for performance (it can also increase base erosion and patch burn-through on bullets and PRB).

BP shooting (shooting in general) isn't magic lol. Its not "blah, blah", it kinda matters.

Yeah. You kind of are right on most points but err tell us nothing new, but hey, thanks.
Oh, the shot I recover from game. After shooting it with fine black powder. Its not deformed

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Yeah. You kind of are right on most points but err tell us nothing new, but hey, thanks.
Oh, the shot I recover from game. After shooting it with fine black powder. Its not deformed

After 65 years of shooting this is the first time I have heard a discussion on deformed shot. I always preferred no4 and bb for foxes brother liked no7 and he shot a lot of ml guns including flint. Uk is more of a shotgun society rather than rifle hunting. , but even us shotgun guys seem to be outcasts these days felt even worse in Western Australia .

 

[Gordoncourtney]

In that case, smokeless powder would be the worst propellant ever lol, that's literally how it functions (longer, progressive burn). The larger granules of BP allow you to create more gas, over a longer period of time, with the same peak pressure. Consistency is consistency, you can be inconsistent with 4F or pebble powder just as easily. Also, the reason why you need to be very careful with using smokeless powders (especially slow rifle powders) in a gun with a non-sealed ignition is that you can create very different internal combustion conditions than the powder was intended to operate at. This can lead to excessively high pressures (example: your slow rifle powder needs 25,000psi minimum to burn as intended, in a sealed gun, you get this from the beginning, and the powder progressively burns down the barrel as intended; but in an open gun, it only initially musters say 12,000 psi (due to losses out of the vent), and the powder charge does not burn at the rate it was intended. the powder and bullet is moving down the barrel, the pressure slowly rising... all of a sudden, the pressure starts to rapidly climb, and instead of having 50% of the charge to burn through at this point of firing, you have 90% of the charge to consume... the pressure exponentially climbs, which exponentially increases the rate of burn, which exponentially increases the pressure, ect, ect. Now your load that should have only produced a peak of 30,000 PSI is now running at 150,000 peak. Gun goes boom, they aren't proofed to THAT much more than standard operating pressures). BP is far more forgiving, being an explosive and all, and isn't nearly as sensitive to pressure as most smokeless formulations are.

There is a yield point in gun barrel design lol... the fact that almost all currently produced ML's out there today use laughably overly thick barrels made with modern production methods and materials means that they are capable of handling ridiculous charges. You also have to remember that these guns (we're talking the originals that repro's are based off of) were proofed (with their original twisted iron or "steel" barrels), which means you put a substantially higher pressure load in it to ensure that the gun will hold together under normal operating circumstances. Just because the gun was meant to work at 25,000psi, and you load it to 40,000 psi doesn't mean that you aren't exceeding the intended operating parameters of the barrel design... it just means you haven't exceeded the proof pressures yet lol. It also doesn't mean you are "building a better mousetrap" because you're trying to "red-line" the pressure of your loads lol. In Shotguns, you can also create excessive deformation of the shot when you drastically increase the pressures, not good for performance (it can also increase base erosion and patch burn-through on bullets and PRB).

BP shooting (shooting in general) isn't magic lol. Its not "blah, blah", it kinda matters.

I don’t think there’s a problem with substituting nitro for black powder as my 577-500 no 2 was proofed for a nitro substitute ( nitro for black) but that’s in a cartridge double rifle. ( 70g VARGET/ 140g BP ) But it’s not for a newcomer to even think about , 65 years of shooting I have seen it all, there’s a lot of nitro powders out there and some I know use it regularly in BP centre fire guns, but not ML the problem is ignition , so you need a rifle primer not a flint or cap , friends have tried duplex loads over the years, given up and now stick to BP. With poor ignition you can get a fizz with nitro and and explosion halfway up the barrel So the argument is not about nitro substitutes but an ignition problem with nitro , obviously you might get away with substituting a rifle primer for a percussion cap if you became desperate for BP as you would in a modern ML centre fire. As a summary BP is fine stick to that , nothing better Ha ha. Sorry to ramble on but it’s such a great interesting subject

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

I don’t think there’s a problem with substituting nitro for black powder as my 577-500 no 2 was proofed for a nitro substitute ( nitro for black) but that’s in a cartridge double rifle. ( 70g VARGET/ 140g BP ) But it’s not for a newcomer to even think about , 65 years of shooting I have seen it all, there’s a lot of nitro powders out there and some I know use it regularly in BP centre fire guns, but not ML the problem is ignition , so you need a rifle primer not a flint or cap , friends have tried duplex loads over the years, given up and now stick to BP. With poor ignition you can get a fizz with nitro and and explosion halfway up the barrel So the argument is not about nitro substitutes but an ignition problem with nitro , obviously you might get away with substituting a rifle primer for a percussion cap if you became desperate for BP as you would in a modern ML centre fire. As a summary BP is fine stick to that , nothing better Ha ha. Sorry to ramble on but it’s such a great interesting subject

.577-500 is a brass cased breechloding gun, AKA: a sealed breech. Fast nitro powders like RedDot are more similar to BP, and are less susceptible to issues with pressure and position than slower powders. I of course do not recommend shooting nitro in a gun not proofed for it. BH209 is nitrocellulose based, and people use it, against Hodgdon's recommendations, in traditional percussion guns, they just use a Magspark adapter and use 209's.