Flintolock pistol rises, never hit the target :-(

[Tom A Hawk]

I came across a video documenting that those pistols were shot while holding in a sideways grip:

I have one on order from Loyalist and it'll be fun to try shooting it that way.

Aha...The "gangsta" grip.

 

[Deavertex]

Not implying it, stating it.

Simple physics.

The explosion of the ignited powder pushes on the bullet and the breech in equalibrium, so there is no movement of the gun itself in either direction.

Once the bullet leaves the barrel it is no longer being pushed, but the push against the breech continues, causing the gun to move back, aka: recoil.

Works that way for all guns, not just muzzle loaders.

The breech is solidly fixed to the rest of the firearm, so when it moves, everything moves. Otherwise, you're violating Newton's laws of motion. That's why you need a tight grip on a pistol with and a firm wrist and elbow, and a firm shouldering of a long arm, so the force is exerted against your body weight, and not just the weapon.

Muzzle rise is caused by the recoil vector being the center of your hand or shoulder. That creates a moment, and that moment is what rotates the barrel up. Both of these begin when the bullet begins to move. With a pistol, the barrel is short enough that movement is negligible -- usually -- before the bullet clears the barrel.

 

[Deavertex]

I came across a video documenting that those pistols were shot while holding in a sideways grip:

I have one on order from Loyalist and it'll be fun to try shooting it that way.

I always enjoy his videos.

My thoughts: Another reason for turning the pistol might well have been making sure that the powder in the pan was in contact with the main charge in the chamber. That even makes sense (to me, at least) as to why this method of firing would be depicted on horsemen more often than on footmen, since the priming charge was being shaken by the horse's movements, with some even possibly being leaked out of the pan. The sideways grip ensured that there was powder adjacent to the touch hole.

 

[PathfinderNC]

I think the point needs to be stressed that you really need to practice. For a Smoothbore like I have ( just a front sight), learn where your pistol aims, grip it well, don’t hover over your target, squeeze the trigger and mind your follow through.
Here’s my buddy Charlie with the same smoothbore pistol, hitting the same target as I did, same distant and the same load. It can be done, with some skill and lots of practice.

 

[PathfinderNC]

This is the flintlock pistol we were shooting; .50 caliber smoothbore with an 8” barrel at about 20 yards. It’s one I built from parts from MBS.

 

[oldwood]

Had a French 69 cal. flint pistol in the early 1980's. It was a blast shooting it into an old car door I found in the woods , could hit the door every time. The balls obturated flat into quarter size. Was boring cause couldn't find a use for it . How many times can ya shoot a car door??

 

[flintlock lover.]

RmFnLA - It definitely is physics, but you don't have it right. Recoil starts the instant the ball and the gas column start to move and continues as long as they are accelerating and are inside the gun. The speed of the ball plus the expelled gas times their mass will equal the speed of the gun times its mass. The gun moves back (and probably up because of the way it's held) and continues to move because it now has that momentum, and the same thing for the ball or bullet.
The cause of recoil doesn't start when the bullet leaves the barrel, it stops then. The recoil continues because it had already started to move.
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
Things in motion remain in motion until something stops them.
It's like trying to throw a baseball when you're on roller skates - the ball goes one way, you go the other way.
It's also why felt recoil is much less if you hold a gun tight against you, then you are adding your mass into the equation, making the speed part less.

Well stated Mr. Newton!

 

[nick_1]

My first thought on the horseman shooting gangsta style was he was trying to keep the powder in the pan. doug. get a large piece of cardboard . something from an appliance box etc. bench and sandbag the pistol to find out whats happening so that you have a base to start with.

 

[Relic shooter]

The videos do a good job diagnosing a shooters accuracy issues.
Before retiring from gunsmithing & building muzzleloaders I tuned a number of big bore repro copies of French, German & English flintlocks & most had horrendous trigger pulls.
The extra stiff trigger pressure allows the sear not to catch in half cock notch when fired but destroys accuracy unless your a musclebound.

Need to use caution lightening the trigger pull as the geometry on the tumbler & springs of some locks is so far out of tune the manufactures 'purposely' implement stiff trigger-pull to prevent the sear from catching in the half cock notch when fired.

If I was younger with more computer skills like some of our firearm members I would post pictures of lock tuning details, hope this helps a little.

Trigger lightening Tips;
Best option is have the lock tuned by someone with the experience & tools to do it properly.

Generally on these locks, the tumblers full-cock notch is often cut at an 'incline' so when trigger is pulled the sear must overpowder the mainspring & sear spring & climb out of the notch to fire.
First option;
-if 'incline of the full-cock notch on your lock does not appear to be excessive, lighten the sear spring. A dremel tool makes removal of a small amount of metal on the springs outer edge easy & also polish tip of spring & sear where they make contact to reduce friction.

-If the incline on your locks full cock notch appears excessive & you have a spring vice & needle files necessary to disassemble the lock, use a needle file to remove just a 'slight' amount of the incline & stone it smooth.
**Work slowly removing the metal between re-assembling & testing !! Can always remove more metal but difficult to put it back unless you have fine tig welding skills.
Below is photo of lock off an english style pistol I tuned several years ago.
Maybe zoom-in will show some sear & spring detail I discussed.
Relic shooter

 

[Doug Fay]

When I got my version of that same pistol (it looks the same, anyway) the trigger pull was horrendous. What I did to fix it is described in section D.2.d if this paper: https://cdn2.imagearchive.com/muzzl...king-my-Royal-Navy-Sea-Service-Pistol-v08.pdf The trigger pull is now fairly light, so I don't think it's the problem, but I'll re-check that.

 

[RMFnLA]

The breech is solidly fixed to the rest of the firearm, so when it moves, everything moves. Otherwise, you're violating Newton's laws of motion. That's why you need a tight grip on a pistol with and a firm wrist and elbow, and a firm shouldering of a long arm, so the force is exerted against your body weight, and not just the weapon.

Muzzle rise is caused by the recoil vector being the center of your hand or shoulder. That creates a moment, and that moment is what rotates the barrel up. Both of these begin when the bullet begins to move. With a pistol, the barrel is short enough that movement is negligible -- usually -- before the bullet clears the barrel.

I get it, and you are right, it’s negligible for modern guns with lighter, faster bullets but apparently not for muzzle loaders.

I’ve just gotten into MLs after more than 50 years of shooting, collecting, and ‘smithing; it’s a whole new universe for me.

 

[RMFnLA]

This is the flintlock pistol we were shooting; .50 caliber smoothbore with an 8” barrel at about 20 yards. It’s one I built from parts from MBS.

Nice!