Foot Pounds

[tenngun]

Smoothbores generally shoot in lower velocity ranges. Shot falls in ml generally 11-1300 fps range. I don’t own a chronograph but people with them shooting loads similar to my FDC tend to be in the 1100 fps range.
When shooting ball in a smoothbore it seems most of popular loads are in 1000- 1400 range. Where as big bore rifles are still hitting the 15-1700 fps range.
So a .62 TFC or such fowler will have less recoil than a .62 Hawken. Simply as a result of the load
A bess, or a WBTS rifled musket is kicking out a lot of ball. However it’s in the 1000 fps range.
The big bore Hawkens will tip the scales at at least a pound or more over the TFC and a long land bess runs just about your aunt Martha size right after thanksgiving meal

 

[Frontstuffer3491]

Twist has zero to do with recoil.

Twist makes a bullet rotate. Faster twists would cause a bullet to rotate faster thereby increasing the rotational energy. As such the total energy given the projectile would increase. Since the projectile would have more energy the recoil energy would be increased. My intuition is that the rotational energy, while not insignificant, would be from 5 to 10 % of the total energy and not felt significantly. All this technically speaking. So in the end you are right - you would not really notice it commonly - only in extreme situations.

 

[Spillikins]

Twist makes a bullet rotate. Faster twists would cause a bullet to rotate faster thereby increasing the rotational energy.

That is correct.

As such the total energy given the projectile would increase.

That is not correct. The law of conservation of energy states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed - only converted from one form of energy to another. If the rotational energy increases then the energy in the forward motion must decrease, because the total energy must remain the same. According to Newton's third law of motion, that will result in a decrease in recoil. (Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.)
The increase in rotational energy will result in a greater twist of the rifle itself in the opposite direction to the spin of the bullet. This is not recoil, but may be perceived as making the rifle less manageable.

 

[Frontstuffer3491]

That is correct.



That is not correct. The law of conservation of energy states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed - only converted from one form of energy to another. If the rotational energy increases then the energy in the forward motion must decrease, because the total energy must remain the same. According to Newton's third law of motion, that will result in a decrease in recoil. (Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.)
The increase in rotational energy will result in a greater twist of the rifle itself in the opposite direction to the spin of the bullet. This is not recoil, but may be perceived as making the rifle less manageable.

Do you not agree that the total energy of the projectile is the sum of the rotational energy and the energy of the projectile’s forward motion?

 

[Frontstuffer3491]

The energy of the propellant expanding and pushing the projectile out the bore would also cause heating directly and due to frictional heat of the projectile in the bore. So when considering conservation of energy, there are other factors involved.

 

[Spillikins]

Yes, of course. That's where your logic fails. As the rotational energy rises due to faster spin, then the forward energy must fall. Therefore recoil will be less.

What's more, as rifling twist increases, so will friction (heat), which takes more kinetic energy from the projectile and will also contribute to lowering recoil.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

A book everyone in this post needs to read, but no one will...

 

[Frontstuffer3491]

Yes, of course. That's where your logic fails. As the rotational energy rises due to faster spin, then the forward energy must fall. Therefore recoil will be less.

What's more, as rifling twist increases, so will friction (heat), which takes more kinetic energy from the projectile and will also contribute to lowering recoil.

The energy comes from the gases created by the burning gun powder.

 

[Spillikins]

Did anyone say otherwise?
I think I'll stop now.

 

[tenngun]

Do you not agree that the total energy of the projectile is the sum of the rotational energy and the energy of the projectile’s forward motion?

I don’t think so. There is x amount of energy in a given powder charge
A rocket is a good example. The gas is the projectile. The rocket going forward is the recoil. Spinning the gas isn’t done
Imagine standing on a sled on ice. You have a cement building block in your hands. You throw it off the back. Block goes one way sled goes another. Block will go farther then the sled, but total foot pounds energy in both directions is the same. The fact that the sled has more weight means it moves less, but the total energy is the same.
If you spin the block it doesn’t add anything, unless you put more energy in to the toss

 

[leadhoarder]

Yes, of course. That's where your logic fails. As the rotational energy rises due to faster spin, then the forward energy must fall. Therefore recoil will be less.

What's more, as rifling twist increases, so will friction (heat), which takes more kinetic energy from the projectile and will also contribute to lowering recoil.

That would be true as long as pressure was still not being applied. inside the barrel. The more restriction that is encountered means more pressure is built up behind the bullet which can lead to increased velocity. There is a crossover point at some point in respects to barrel length where the powder burns out and what you are thinking can become true.

 

[64Springer]

Don't forget about trigger pull weight and headwinds.

Those could be factors too.

That's an easy three pounds added to the recoil.

 

[cannonball1]

I heard back from the engineers. These engineers cut their teeth on target shooting and analyzing. While they have not used their chronograph "yet" and as some of you correctly hit on several items, here is what they told me. 1. Mass X Velocity = Recoil, 2. Velocity usually is faster with a dirty barrel {proof of more pressure), 3. A rifled barrel creates more pressure, 4. More pressure - more velocity, 5. Thus a rifled barrel has higher velocity than a smooth-bore, and 6. A lot of the energy is also lost out of the end of the smooth-bore., 6. Guns are all different, and 7. Yes some/more rifled barrels most likely would have more recoil than a smooth-bore because of more velocity and more of the energy is used in a rifled barrel.

Interesting subject for them and they plan to the scientific trials on the range.

 

[necchi]

I heard back from the engineers.,, here is what they told me. ,,,

Gee, it's good that they at least broke it down into easy to understand terms for ya.
It's good that they are going to scientifically prove the second #6 and #7.
Keep us posted,

 

[BuffaloSoldier]

I always love the equations that show up when we get to talking about this. E=mc2, etc. And on and on. Let's just load 'em and shoot 'em.

 

[cannonball1]

Sorry Buffalo, but this old guy is getting to the age, like many, who like to talk about it. Half of the pollution in the world are those shooters who like to just make noise rather than think about things. I see them at the range all of the time, not knowing where they are going, or where they have been. Just making a lot of holes in the sky.

 

[64Springer]

Shooters don't know where they came from or where they're going. They just shoot holes in the sky. Is that a quote from Socrates?


When this thread began in had some merit.

Now it's just weird.

A gaggle of dedicated shooting engineers blowing off the Memorial Day weekend to solve the great recoil debate.

Who are these engineers? Friends of the 51 alphabet agency fellas who signed The Geriatric's Hunter laptop letter.

 

[cannonball1]

Actually they are my a couple of friends and they are licensed engineers. They really do shoot all the time and make shooting charts about different loads and about anything with a gun you can think about. They are dedicated to the art of shooting and they do read a lot about guns, bows and hunting. No, they don't dress up and they don't go to rendezvous. They just shoot and hunt. Finally your right we have about hashed this conversation. When the "sourcrouts" start coming out of the woodwork - - Time to move on. However, I am still interested in anyone who have constructive information about this subject.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

Well, there is always Mann's book to read. It was written over 100 years ago. He was a wealthy man who spared no expense and spent years of his life studying bullets, twist and everything else. But no one here will read it, 'cause we have engineers now.. .

 

[64Springer]

Well, there is always Mann's book to read. It was written over 100 years ago. He was a wealthy man who spared no expense and spent years of his life studying bullets, twist and everything else. But no one here will read it, 'cause we have engineers now.. .

Licensed Engineers.