For a first kit. Traditions flintlock vs. percussion.

[wganz]

The last kits I did was before I joined the army in 1978. So, it has been a few years. For a starter first kit to get going again, am looking at the Traditions Kentucky flintlock kit. I've done little craftsman work in the intervening years with most being either in IT or hospital work.

Are there any pitfalls or "gotcha's" that would make this a no-go for a first kit? One thing that has me debating this is that I've read in this forum that the L&R Lock Company's RPL Lock is highly recommended for Traditions kits. Those are $180 for a flintlock. Which is basically 50% of the kit cost which gets into the lipstick on a pig type of deal. Which makes me wonder if just going with a percussion kit initially isn't a better idea.
Would I be better off starting with the percussion rather than a flintlock kit?

I was looking as a 2nd build the Traditions flintlock "Prairie Hawken Rifle Kit".
Then; get the L&R RPL Flint Lock and Davis "Deerslayer" Trigger for that one.

Regards,



PS.
Kudo's to all on this forum for:
A) pointing out the obvious that the brass can be darkened so that the joint doesn't glare and
B) use Birchwood Casey alcohol based stains instead of MinWax.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

You answered your own question, sort of....,

The Traditions Kentucky Rifle is a two-piece stock, and a short barrel, so might as well get a caplock for reliability, you're going to need that after-market flint lock if you get the flint version.

The Traditions Pennsylvania Rifle (imho) is a much better "long rifle", but can do with a lock upgrade too, yet then you're pushing close to $1000.00. For that money and a flinter, you should be buying (again imho) a Kibler Rifle Kit :wink:

LD

 

[Eric Krewson]

I am not a fan of sprucing up a factory kit with expensive parts, you end up with twice what the gun is worth in the upgrades.

I put a L&R RPL lock on a Renegade made from a pile of random parts. It took more gun making skills to fit that lock to the Renegade stock than any lock installation on all my other flintlock builds, including two plank builds. These locks are not even close to being a drop in.

Here is an example; Look at how far off the lock bolt hole is from the original TC lock bolt hole which I filled and redrilled for the L&R. You have to hit a tiny blind threaded hole on the L&R bridal with your lock bolt. Next I had to grind off part of the patent breech to accommodate the new lock bolt in the forward position.

If you plan to keep the gun for a lifetime and not buy another, go for it. Once you get into black powder there is always that inner nudge to move up to better, prettier and to a more historically correct firearm.

 

[Grenadier1758]

The gotchas with respect to the Traditions Kits are the locks are just barely capable of being functional. The percussion lock will work, but the flint lock will require more than a little bit of tuning.

That being said, I second Loyalist Dave's recommendation for the Jim Kibler kit for a flintlock build. It is a precisely prepared kit with very few of the assembly issues that are found in many other albeit inexpensive kits. In other words, the KIbler kit will be easier to assemble, look better and perform better than many other kits.

Not only that the Kibler kits comes with a high quality lock. As many of us on the forum will say, "Its the lock that makes a flont lock rifle such a joy to shoot."

 

[coloradoclyde]

"Its the lock that makes a flint lock rifle such a joy to shoot."

Truer words have never been spoken.

The old Jukar and CVA flint locks were terrible...The new Traditions locks appear to be redesigned...They certainly don't look the same or appear to function the same. The replacement locks were designed to cure the old CVA/Jukar faults and worn out broken locks....Putting one on a new gun would not be my first thought.

 

[BrownBear]

If you want to hit something like a "mid-point" between Traditions and the justifiably acclaimed Kibler, I'd sure take a look at the Lyman kits. About the only gotcha in them is the tiny screws for the escutcheons, and that's an easy work around.

I've had my issues with Traditions not worth going into here, and have found Lyman products worth the little extra price for more reliability and quality.

 

[wganz]

Y'all are right, I want a flint but want a good one. The caplock is going to be more reliable and cover up a multitude of sins with my first kits in four decades. Yeah, wow, put that way, it has been a spell.... Anyway. I'll go with caplock kits until I get that Kibler. No sense in buying trouble.

The Kibler flintlock kit is extremely nice :shocked2:. Already emailed them to ask if there is a surcharge for the .54 smoothbore barrel. Not only is that a superb flintlock but is made by an American also.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Which makes me wonder if just going with a percussion kit initially isn't a better idea.
Would I be better off starting with the percussion rather than a flintlock kit?

Flint and percussion are different games. Other discussions on the forum right now show the adherents to each discipline are quite devoted to their choice. Flint is the older system and enjoyed by most for just that reason. Percussion is a more modern system but gives more reliable ignition. My personal preference is flint. Even though it can frustrate the dickens out of you, it is, IMHO, a lot more funner. Actually, I feel like I am sinning when I shoot percussion. :wink: Each to his own. Do yer own thang, Bro.

 

[Col. Batguano]

I guess the other question is; for what purpose are you getting the gun? If you are getting it for formal target shooting, or for hunting, the cap gun is going to be far more accurate (much faster lock time) and be far less fussy to make it work. If you are getting it for the "joy of shooting" then a flint gun will probably be more fun to mess around with. Just be aware there is a lot more to pay attention to with them, and lock tuning is critical for proper function.

The one thing I will say about all of them though, is that you only pay for quality once. You pay for "cheap stuff" every time you use it.

 

[Eric Krewson]

I just noticed Mr Kibler has posted an assembly video on his colonial kit. This will give you an idea of what it takes to put one together.

I built one of his southern rifle kits and it is way above and beyond any other kits out there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_AVBh1dYGs

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

If you want a true ”˜kit’ build, consider a kit gun by Chambers, TVM, Mike Brooks or Tip Curtis.

IMHO I don’t consider a Kilber put-together-rifle a ”˜kit’, it’s more like a snap together model. That said, the historical design and parts are top notch. But the ... dare I say builder ... isn’t doing much at all.

 

[wganz]

Thank you for the links since I had zero clue that these were available.

To memorialize this with links for others:

http://www.tennesseevalleymuzzleloading.com/muzzleloader-in-white -=> Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading
http://www.flintlocks.com -=> Jim Chambers Flintlocks
http://www.fowlingguns.com/brookskits.html -=> Mike Brooks
http://tippycurtisknives.com/guns.html -=> Tippy Curtis {but marked 'not for sale'}

As Clint Eastwood said, "A man has got to know his limitations. "; well, at this point in the ball game, I consider myself as a Level 0 newbie/beginner/kit assembler. After getting some practice on Traditions kits, that Tennessee Valley kit does look appealing.


Thanks for the info,

 

[MSW]

wganz, welcome to the highly 'habit forming' (addictive) world of ML...

now that you have your checkbook (or debit card or whatever) well in hand, I would recommend you gulp hard and purchase some books - they're available from Track of the Wolf, but you might find a better deal elsewhere - I don't know.

my personal favorite if The Gunsmith of Grenville County, by Peter Alexander ”¦ you may also want to check out Recreating the American Longrifle, Buchele et al.

here are some links:
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/321/1/BOOK-RAL
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/321/1/BOOK-GGC

you should read these books before you start, of course. this way you will understand not only the order in which you ought to do the various steps, but why they fit in that particular order. This will substantially reduce the " gotcha" and the OH S&^$!! moments. I figure that the cost of these book is more than recovered in parts I didn't ruin.

Additionally, you should get some decent tools. Cheap tools suck: no polite way to say it. By this I do not mean "cheap" tools, but cheaply made tools which are (to borrow from Faulkner) an anathema and apotheosis. You can get good tools for a low price (if you're careful and ruthless) and you can be overcharged for cheaply made tools (if you're casual and gullible). Been there, done that...

More on the same rant: become adept at the sharpening of all of you edges. If you can't shave with it, it's pretty much worthless. You want all of your edges neurosurgery sharp. If not, you will find how very hard it is to get bloodstains out of an expensive stock. (More "AW S&*%!!" moments.)

Remember that there's not a timeline to this build, and it's a journey, not a race... building is supposed to be fun, and when it's getting to look like work, that's the time to go cuss politicians or do something else.

The pencil is your friend. Keep it sharp, too. Get a big eraser - one of the commercial 'draftsman' erasers. And don't be afraid to use it.

Avoid 'sets' of things (chisels come to mind). You will pay a boatload of money for tools you seldom (if ever) use. Instead, spend the extra money and get really good tools that you will use all the time. Also avoid power tools - the Dremel sort of thing is probably the worst offender. Such 'magic' will get you into trouble a whole lot faster than if can get you out of trouble. Don't, please, ask me how I know.
:redface: :cursing: :redface: :cursing: :cursing: :cursing: :cursing:

the notable exception is a modest drill press (a tabletop model will do fine for this application). if you are super careful, the drill press will do things which are doable by hand, but not with the same level of difficulty.

Again, welcome in. The coolest tools are the ones that you make for yourself, and a good gun is an essential tool, to my mind.

Make Good Smoke!

:grin:

 

[Scota4570]

If you have limited skill and tools get a Kibler, or a Chambers. I would never recommend Traditions, CVA, and the like to anyone.

Some say Kibler kits are too easy, I disagree. If you are starting out it is a great way to learn how it is supposed to be done. You will learn how the parts fit and relate. You will learn how it is supposed to be shaped. You will not get frustrated and loose interest before it is done. You will have a top quality rifle to show for your efforts.

For those who build for sale you can spend your time on carving and engraving. Most buyers don't care if you spend 100 hours working on a plank. They look at the final result.

I have assembled four Kiblers. I hear, Chambers kits are along the same line. More assembly than actual building. I think it has its place and it a good thing.

"Builders kits" often have serious problems. Sometimes the stocks are cut wrong. A significant number are unusable. You will probably spend lots of time correcting mistakes that the stock carver made. Often you won't figure out it is junk until after you start. Once you cut you own it, no exchanges. This is not for beginners.

As an example I was sold a bad hawken stock. I burned it, at least it was good for somehting. I ended up building from a plank. Arguing back and forth was frustrating. I ruined the lock trying to make it work with the bad stock. I probably spent 40-hours on a junk stock. In the end I spent about $400 extra to replace ruined or unusable parts. I am done with ordinary pre-carved stocks. I find it faster and less frustrating to work from a plank.

 

[Davemuzz]

All good advice from MSW.....and all the rest!!

When I delved into my Leman build, the first thing I did was purchase about 6 new files of various shapes, and "grit". I found that life is much easier using a nice sharp file....from moving a lot of wood to shaping metal.

Sharp can't be understated either. A good stone on your bench is a great asset!!

FWIW

 

[Col. Batguano]

As a pure "build" a flint gun is going to be an easier build than a percussion gun. Flinters are very forgiving of touch hole placement. Percussion hammers have to hit the nipple in the right place, and at just the right angle, so nipple length, placement location, and angle of hammer engagement are critical.

Furthermore, if you are building a drum style cap gun, the drum needs to be placed so it is supported by the lock plate. If you don't do that, then you will only have the threads on the drum absorbing the hammer blow, and that shock may make them prone to cracking and eventual failure.

A flint gun's lock will need more tuning, and is more complicated, but if you start out with a quality lock, like a Chambers, most of that will already have been done for you by the time you get it.

 

[Pete G]

If you start with a "Traditions" kit you are going to end up with a "Traditions" rifle. :barf:

There are much better choices available.

 

[stubshaft]

If you start with a "Traditions" kit you are going to end up with a "Traditions" rifle. :barf:

There are much better choices available.

:thumbsup:

 

[wganz]

Definitely got the point about it only being a Traditions rifle when its done. Silk from a sow's ear and lipstick on the pig won't improve the underlying problems.

How about this process instead?
First step is to get the 2 books listed above read, then get a new set of files{any hints other than just going to the local hardware store and just start buying things?}.

Have decided on the Pedersoli Scout kit[ Link ] since Pedersoli has a better reputation for the first build. Definitely pricer but Yugo's are cheaper than Toyota's for a reason......

Next build will be another Pedersoli but a flintlock.[ Link ] Always wanted a 'trade gun' style of gun and the local Dallas ML club has specific 'trade gun' shoots from time to time.

Finally, the last one will be a John Kibler Longrifle in .50[ Link ].

This would give me a light caplock, a 'Trade Gun', and a John Kibler Longrifle.
Any additional input is respected.


Thanks for the advice,

 

[kansas_volunteer]

When I bought my Lyman GPR I had more discretionary income than needed so I bought the RPL lock and deer slayer triggers right out of the gate.

A few reasons.

Comments here convinced me the RPL was superior to the kit lock, as are the triggers.

I just liked the outside look of the RPL better than the kit lock.

Along that line the RPL looks more traditional than the T/C-like lock with the kit.

The GPR looks more like a rifle of old than any T/C Hawken and any of its many copies, such as what you're dealing with. Dressing a GPR up is a step or two better than the silk purse from a sows ear level. I wouldn't put money into an RPL for one of the other style unless the kit lock just absolutely could not be made to work. That is silk purse ... work.

The RPL is not a drop in item and is not sold as such. It's made perfectly clear up front inletting has to be done. When it is done your lock mortise will be exactly what it would be if you had started out with a traditional HC/PC lock to begin with.

Mention is made of escutcheon plate screws for the GPR. As sold screws in the kit are for our purposes number one size screws. They should immediately be tossed and replaced with number two screws. Get a number two gimlet to start the screws properly.