The Appalachian
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I've made an emergency forge with stacked fire bricks and inserting a propane weed burner through a hole in the side. Got steel hot enough to bend and hammer.
For those of us without oxy-acy torch or forge
- Thread starter tom in nc
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Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
I recently bought a single burner “Mr. Volcano” forge from Amazon and have been very happy with it. It took several days (mostly drying time) to complete the refractory lining but has been worth it. I have enjoyed playing with the little forge on some smallish Blacksmithing projects. I also bought a half-dozen fire bricks to use in closing up the back and front to hold in heat which probably helps the little forge.
If you only need one for small things ever now and then you might be able to use a mini-ductor. Costs more than making a small one but takes up less room, more portable but you need electricity. Will get a bolt red hot in a few seconds.
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Check out Amazon. They have one that is small there is another that is a bit larger.
They run off propane.
They run off propane.
I'm admittedly a tad confused here ... as I'm not ablacksmith and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn last night either, but a very talented and reknown builder from the CLA cautioned me against using stainless steel bodied forges for locks ... here is what they said:
"That oven you showed me is not ideal. You want a brick lined one, NOT stainless. The stainless can react with the heat treating and take away any surface hardening that you did. A brick lined oven with elect elements is best. Make up some metal containers to fill with bone & charcoal to treat parts. Must have a lid. Want to keep oxygen away from your parts. After engraving a part, like a frizzen, you do not want any scale to develop that will ruin you hard work.
The forge you show has no door, but at least has bricks (save $$ and buy your own locally). A fire brick floor is necessary in my opinion. A door saves energy and allows quicker heating time. A door with a little window is nice for blades too, maybe with one at the back also for pass throughs.
Don't get one with a burner centered in the top, it should be off to one side to create a circular 'flow' inside the chamber, gives better heating that is more even and consistent. Straight down only heats what's directly below it, but maybe good for some purposes. I make mine from spare pipe & fire bricks. If the burner is efficient and placed to distribute the heat ... all is well, all good to go!"
This is TRUE - the MAPP gas you now buy is NOT the same BTUs as it was some years ago. It is now more like propane BTUs.
Here's a cool (Hot?, LOL!) easy to DIY fire brick MINI forge. Hmmmmm, I might start with this, as I have an immediate need ...
https://www.thegeekpub.com/1495/how-to-make-a-homemade-mini-forge/
https://www.thegeekpub.com/1495/how-to-make-a-homemade-mini-forge/
The Appalachian
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There is literally nothing I can find that will back up that statement.
Nothing.
Infact, a very common practice when heat treating is to place the part inside a stainless steel foil packet (to protect the surface of the part from producing scale), heat the packet/part to correct time/temp, remove part from packet, and quench in the correct manner.
If stainless steel would negatively impact heat treatment it would absolutely not be used as I've just described.
So, I call Bull on that.....
Have to agree with you, unless I’ve been doing it wrong since the 1970s. I use a stainless foil wrap specifically made for heat treating. My home heat treat oven does not have a controlled atmosphere and that is what I use to minimize scaling when working with tool steel.
Good to know, thank you!
I made this one using two Mapp Torches for a quick heat up. I mostly use for small blades and flintlock frizzens. It does a great job on small projects. The coffee can is lined with ceramic wool coated with ceramic cement. I was lucky finding two torches on clearance for $9 each at a discount tool store. You need to be sure the brass tips do not extend into the can past the liner or you could melt them.
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The Appalachian
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Before you call Bull on that,
Check your technical library under metallurgy, I think you will be surprised concerning the effects of heat treatment in an earth atmospheric based heat treatment device.
Companies exist with non disclosure agreements that have decades of heat treatment data. So if you haven't been involved, haven't worked in technical fields, or don't have access to white papers (some are very expensive to review), then yeah you literally can't find what you are looking for. Doesn't make the subject Bull.
For the subject being discussed, the solutions are interesting and achievable at low cost.
The Appalachian
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Pony up your technical data then, otherwise, yes, Bull.
Stainless steel foil is used in heat treatment of many kinds of metal to prevent scaling. That's a fact. Show me where a world full of knife makers are wrong and ruining their knives with it.
Stainless foil is literally in contact with what's being heat treated. The statement I'm calling bull on is regarding a stainless forge outer housing with a substantial thickness of kaowool and rigidizer between the housing and the metal being heat treated.
Which would clearly affect heat treatment more if it did?
The Appalachian,
My intent was to express the idea of an open mind rather than saying "There is literally nothing I can find that will back up that statement."
There may be other sources of information you have not found.
If people here have ideas about using inexpensive methods to do heat treating, I am interested in that.
If you found my reply offensive in any way, I apologize to you and everyone.
So,
The stainless steel oven shell will be heated and at a molecular level particles will be present that can deposit onto the metal being heat treated. The quantity of particles and the materials they bond with on the way to the item being heat treated can affect the heat treating but the effect may be difficult to measure.
Typically oxygen is a gas that becomes detrimental in a heat treating or welding (bonding of materials at a molecular level) which is why flood gases are used to take the place of the gases present in normal atmosphere. Nitrogen can be a good gas to try as it is inexpensive, also acts as a drying medium to remove water from the treatment zone.
If you were made of money you could try hydrogen but it's dangerous and has lots of expensive controls in the process.
Heat treatment also effects electrical properties of metals and measurements can be made to check conductivity and magnetic flux changes.
PhD's make a living proving all this stuff with equations that back up the process.
If one stumbles upon a process that works for keeping an edge on a blade sharp, as they say in Maine - That's wicked good chummy.
I was thinking firebrick lined with electric heating coils from or for ceramic firing kiln using a programmable temperature controller with auto tuning driving a solid state relay powered from 120 Volts AC. Inexpensive too.
My intent was to express the idea of an open mind rather than saying "There is literally nothing I can find that will back up that statement."
There may be other sources of information you have not found.
If people here have ideas about using inexpensive methods to do heat treating, I am interested in that.
If you found my reply offensive in any way, I apologize to you and everyone.
So,
The stainless steel oven shell will be heated and at a molecular level particles will be present that can deposit onto the metal being heat treated. The quantity of particles and the materials they bond with on the way to the item being heat treated can affect the heat treating but the effect may be difficult to measure.
Typically oxygen is a gas that becomes detrimental in a heat treating or welding (bonding of materials at a molecular level) which is why flood gases are used to take the place of the gases present in normal atmosphere. Nitrogen can be a good gas to try as it is inexpensive, also acts as a drying medium to remove water from the treatment zone.
If you were made of money you could try hydrogen but it's dangerous and has lots of expensive controls in the process.
Heat treatment also effects electrical properties of metals and measurements can be made to check conductivity and magnetic flux changes.
PhD's make a living proving all this stuff with equations that back up the process.
If one stumbles upon a process that works for keeping an edge on a blade sharp, as they say in Maine - That's wicked good chummy.
I was thinking firebrick lined with electric heating coils from or for ceramic firing kiln using a programmable temperature controller with auto tuning driving a solid state relay powered from 120 Volts AC. Inexpensive too.
The Appalachian
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The Appalachian,
My intent was to express the idea of an open mind rather than saying "There is literally nothing I can find that will back up that statement."
There may be other sources of information you have not found.
If people here have ideas about using inexpensive methods to do heat treating, I am interested in that.
If you found my reply offensive in any way, I apologize to you and everyone.
So,
The stainless steel oven shell will be heated and at a molecular level particles will be present that can deposit onto the metal being heat treated. The quantity of particles and the materials they bond with on the way to the item being heat treated can affect the heat treating but the effect may be difficult to measure.
Typically oxygen is a gas that becomes detrimental in a heat treating or welding (bonding of materials at a molecular level) which is why flood gases are used to take the place of the gases present in normal atmosphere. Nitrogen can be a good gas to try as it is inexpensive, also acts as a drying medium to remove water from the treatment zone.
If you were made of money you could try hydrogen but it's dangerous and has lots of expensive controls in the process.
Heat treatment also effects electrical properties of metals and measurements can be made to check conductivity and magnetic flux changes.
PhD's make a living proving all this stuff with equations that back up the process.
If one stumbles upon a process that works for keeping an edge on a blade sharp, as they say in Maine - That's wicked good chummy.
I was thinking firebrick lined with electric heating coils from or for ceramic firing kiln using a programmable temperature controller with auto tuning driving a solid state relay powered from 120 Volts AC. Inexpensive too.
I choose my words very carefully when I post.
When I used the words "nothing I can find" in my comment, that leaves the door WIDE open for what I could not find, and for someone to step up and correct me. It's not an absolute statement that means there IS nothing, just nothing I could find.
You should choose your assumptions in the same manner and it might would save you a LOT of unnecessary typing.......
I picked up the same one for myself, 70 bucks for a little forge was pretty reasonable and it works for anything I'll be doing... Just wanted to try forging without spending an arm and a leg...
I probably don't -won't need a forge as I will only be attempting to make some springs. Although I do have one hammer that needs a slight offset bent into it, only about 1/32-1/16" over towards the center line of the bore. I'm unsure if I should try to bend it cold or apply some heat.
