forging, anyone done much?

[flashpanner]

Have some ?? about forging. (no not illegal documents or checks!! :grin: ) Any one doen weld forging with dissimilar alloys? I am interested in welding black iron with plow share. Why one might ask? I want a metal that can be hardened in a wear zone but keep a softer steel in a non critical area, i.e. a trigger. I want a hardenable steel where the sear is but soft where the finger pull is. Anybody have much luck using Borax soap as a flux?

 

[LRB]

You could just soft solder a hardened wear plate at that place. It won't be seen anyway.

 

[Joe Yanta]

Flashpanner I agree with Wick, it is a simple solution. The propane forge I use (ProForge 600) is refractory lined. I forge welded one trade axe in it. The borax flux ate up the refractory. It was like putting water on cotton candy. Don't know what kind of forge you are plannng to use. Just thought I would through that out for concideration.

Joe

 

[blacksmithshoppe]

Are you using a Propane or Coal forge? I weld steel ( Spring Stock and Old Files) on to Wrought Iron and Mild Steel for the cutting edge's on Axes and its not a big deal. Is was done all thing in the old days for the same reasons you stated. I use Borax mixed with Filing's to eat up the extra Oxygen to keep the scale down.
Jeff

 

[J.D.]

It would be much easier to use hardenable steel. Selectively heat treat the part by hardening and tempering the finished trigger to the desired hardness on the wear surface, but temper the trigger shoe at a higher temp. Selective heat treating was, and is, common in many applications.

Simply clamp the hardened section of the part in a vise, as a heat sink, and using a torch, continue to heat the sections of your part that you want soft.

The vise, acting as a heat sink, will wick away the higher heat applied to the trigger shoe that will allow it to become softer without affecting the hardened section of your part.

BTW, Why would you want the wear surface hard, but the trigger shoe soft? Hardness of the trigger shoe shouldn't make any difference in a finished trigger.

As an alternative, make the trigger assembly of mild steel and case harden the entire piece.

Case hardening will provide wear resistance, and toughness to prevent breakage.
J.D.

 

This is serious overkill. I have forged many triggers out of mild steel over the years and never had a report of one "wearing out" yet! All that section does is lift the sear a fraction of an inch by exerting a couple of pounds leverage preasure.

Most folks never touch heat to that part and just cold forge the trigger.

If you absolutely positively had to have a hard wear surface you could kasenet that one section or spot harden that surface without going to the trouble of welding.

Yes, Borax is wnat most everyone uses for flux.

 

[blacksmithshoppe]

This is serious overkill. I have forged many triggers out of mild steel over the years and never had a report of one "wearing out" yet! All that section does is lift the sear a fraction of an inch by exerting a couple of pounds leverage preasure.

Most folks never touch heat to that part and just cold forge the trigger.

If you absolutely positively had to have a hard wear surface you could kasenet that one section or spot harden that surface without going to the trouble of welding.

Yes, Borax is wnat most everyone uses for flux.

I have to agree with Ghost, Its not necessary to harden the trigger wear surface and I don't see the point in leaving the lower part of the trigger soft ether if you are going to harden the top.
Jeff

 

[Charles/NM]

Have some ?? about forging. (no not illegal documents or checks!! :grin: ) Any one doen weld forging with dissimilar alloys? I am interested in welding black iron with plow share. Why one might ask? I want a metal that can be hardened in a wear zone but keep a softer steel in a non critical area, i.e. a trigger. I want a hardenable steel where the sear is but soft where the finger pull is. Anybody have much luck using Borax soap as a flux?

Could you give us a few more details about the trigger you want to make and it's application? I make all sorts of triggers and sears out of O-1 tool steel.
No help on the Borax question. I've done lots of forging but haven't forged welded yet.

 

[chipper]

I'm a blacksmith and do quite alot of welding. I use a coal forge and blower to do the work. Borax works great but if your just beginning to weld, start with links of a chain first. It's the easiest way to start. Having to hold two pieces of material is really difficult. It's impossible to do unless you have a helper.
I start my welds on chain links by preparing the two surfaces by grinding them to remove scale and rust. I then prepare a scarf joint on both sides by heating each side and putting a small divit using the edge of my anvil. I bring the two sides up to temperature together and use a small spoon with a long handle to apply the flux/borax. The opposite side of the spoon has a point. Poke around on the piece and it will get sticky when the joint is ready. The metal will be yellow hot and begin to dissapear into the background of the fire. Quickly Pull the piece from the fire and hit the two pieces together, lightly with a small hammer. The subsequent hits can be harder. Turn the joint 90 degrees on both sides and keep hitting. Re-heat and continue to form the pieces together.
If your ever in Loveland Colorado, I would be happy to demonstrate on my forge....

Regards

 

[anvil64]

You could try "super quench" a mixture of water, salt, soap and other supermarket liquids. I use it for fly press tooling and have made a folder spring out of mild steel and hardened it with super quench. Note: only use it for low carbon steel.

Google "super quench" and a bunch of pages come up, I'll try to find the recipe I used.

Here is a site, scroll down to "Heat Treat", there is a recipe for superquench for low carbon steel.
[url] http://www.warnerknives.com/tips_&_tricks.htm[/url]

 

Hey Gene - welcome!
For those that don't know Gene's the man who's written all of those cool forging sketchbooks, including the one on how to make a mountain man folder!

Chuck Burrows aka Grey Wolf

 

[renovato]

Hi Gene, welcome aboard. What a great piece of information. Thanks

 

[blacksmithshoppe]

You could try "super quench" a mixture of water, salt, soap and other supermarket liquids. I use it for fly press tooling and have made a folder spring out of mild steel and hardened it with super quench. Note: only use it for low carbon steel.

Gene:
I have never been able to find the Shaklee Basic 1 to make Super Quench. I guess I should post the hole thing.
5 gallons Water
24 oz Dawn Dish Soap
5 pounds salt
8 oz Shaklee Basic 1
Quench at 1550 Degrees F. Cherry Red but below Oeange.
I hope this helps.
Jeff

 

[anvil64]

Hi, everyone, thanks for the warm welcome.

I couldn't find the Shaklee stuff so used Jet Dry liquid per Bob Warners recipe.

Engraved the end of 5/8" mild steel bar with four letters, heated and super quenched the end. A file would just barely touch it. Used on both hot and annealed copper (about) 3/16" thick on the fly press. Worked well. This turned out to be a test, should have reversed the letters, must be an age deal.

 

[anvil64]

Here is the mild steel super quenched test stamp and test pieces. It went too deep in the red hot copper, marked the annealed copper just about right. The steel piece was done at a red heat, didn't go as deep as the copper.

 

[Jblk]

One of the best books that I have ever found on Blacksmithing is Country Blacksmithing by Charles McRaven.You can often find a copy in your Public library.Mr McRaven write in a manner that the average man understands, and he imparts alot of knowledge that you normally don't get for the books available.I saw several of the old blacksmiths work at their forges as a young boy. and they truly worked magic.But they sure didn't like kids under foot!