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wayne1967

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I posted a pic of the first forged knife that I had made on here a few months ago and have really caught the bug again. I cheated and used a torch to heat my metal stock on that knife and had a guy tell me that you loose carbon when you don't use a coal forge.

I've been searching the internet for forge designs and noticed the LP gas forges. I would think maybe you loose carbon when fold welding with something other than coal but if you are just shaping a blade you souldn't much should you?
 
Im no expert, but I thought that wroght type irons "absorbed" carbon from coal becoming steel like with repeated forgings, as in Wootz type twisted or folded steels ...but I wasnt aware that steel became iron like when heated with gas...could be though?
TCA
 
When you heat your steel in a forge your loose carbon , There no way around it.Some coal is realy nasty and well put stuff your in your steel when you heating. Have fun.
 
IMHO, in most cases, yes, heating to the critical temp will remove carbon from the surface of the steel. However, if the fire is deep enough to allow a deep reducing layer, carbon loss is reduced considerably, and in some cases, carbon can be absorbed by the steel.

In a gas fired forge, forget it. There can be a significant loss of surface carbon in a gas forge. IMHO, the hotter a part gets, the more surface carbon is lost, especially at welding temps.

God bless
 
Folks:

Heat control is critical in any forging operation, and some carbon loss/migration is common.

However, this loss is not significant and recalls the old blacksmith'sd maxim: "Forge it large and grind it small". An admontion that there will be dimensional change in small parts that are forged.

The best weay to avoid this problem is to not over heat the part, and to use the appropriate heat for the operation in question. This is true of both gas and solid fuel forges. A solid fuel forge imports so little carbon into the workpiece that it is not significant. In a gas forge, your biggest problem is grain growth, especially if you use a gas forge to heat treat. Ther e are ways around this problem as well. I routinely forge blades and small tools in a gas furnace, with good results. The secret is HEAT CONTROL! Sadly, this is not really taught is most smithing courses. The old smiths, who routinely made objects that had to perform, vs. artwork, were masters of this skill.
 
In a gas fired forge, forget it. There can be a significant loss of surface carbon in a gas forge.
No more so than with a gas forge if you know what you are doing.....
1) You can use a carburizing flame in a gas forge to control some of the loss just like in a coal forge - leave a piece of steel in a coal or wood or charcoal fire at high heat and with oxygen allowed you will lose carbon just like it will in a gas forge. Bury it in the coals without oxygen and you will get a mild case hardening
2) As GB noted it's all about heat control not so much the source of the heat - too hot too long and you will lose carbon - any time you've got significant scale you've got carbon loss, it's the high carbon content in scale that makes it so hard.
3) As James noted coal can be bad for other reasons such as sulphur


I thought that wroght type irons "absorbed" carbon from coal becoming steel like with repeated forgings, as in Wootz type twisted or folded steels
Tim it's more complicated than that.
1) Wrought iron was made from cast iron pigs which naturally have a high carbon content. To make WI these pigs were heated and beated until most of the carbon was burnt off - most WI has some residual carbon - usually no more than .03% but it can be higher. Puddle iron and other later methods generally produce iron with noe or little carbon.
2) Steel was then made by the cementation process - basically the same process as case hardening, only the wrought iron was cooked for days and even weeks at a time in special furnaces. The mutiple layers of WI bars (one sources says these bars were 1/2" x 4" x 20') were surrounded by layers of charcoal and then sealed so oxygen was limited. Iron absorbs carbon at the rate of about .008"(8 thousands) at 1500°F per hour.
The same thing can be done in a coal forge on a limited basis, but it requires constant attention to the flame and how the steel is place - this method was often called blacksmith casing by the old timers that I learned from, but it produces only a thin casing.
Wootz is in fact a crucible steel with special properties due to where it was originally made - it was in fact an early alloyed steel with a high (1-1.5%) carbon content.
Folded aka pattern welded is a method of originally using a combination of iron and steel to make a bar - during heating there is carbon migrtion from the steel to the iron, making the bar more homogenized.
 
Labonte you hit the nail on the head . IMHO those with gas forges that have a digtal readout and thermo couple have greater control over the actual temp of their forge and steel
 
A good description of the production of "blister steel", though Huntsman process crucible steel, done around 1745 was a sea-change in steel production. Huntsman steel made predictable springs possible, thus making an accurate marine chronometer possible, and the fixing of latitude. Then everything changed.

It was the Huntsman process that made the precise control of carbon, thus tool steels, possible.

Sulphur can be very problematic in tool forging, especially in steels that have a high nickel content. It is said that nickel has an affinity for sulphur that can be detrimental to the alloy. However, a small amount of sulphur is present in some alloys and it make some alloys more free-machining.

I first learned to forge L6 (nickel bearing steel) in a coal/coke forge and was warned that the fire must be very clean and a good grade of coal used, unless you were beginning with coke. This is a huge topic!
 
A good description of the production of "blister steel", though Huntsman process crucible steel, done around 1745 was a sea-change in steel production. Huntsman steel made predictable springs possible, thus making an accurate marine chronometer possible, and the fixing of latitude. Then everything changed.
Huntsman did make a big difference, but blister steel still had to be made first since it was and is the "mother" steel for crucible aka cast steel (the latter name, commonly used in the past, is a continuing source of confusion, until one understands the three types of steel making used during the 18th-19th Centuries (a fourth method appeared in the mid-1900's)

here is a quick over view of the three main types of steel:
1) Blister-steel: Steel formed by roasting wrought iron bars in contact with carbon in a cementing furnace. It is so called from the blistered appearance of it's outer skin. To improve the quality, it was subjected to two subsequent processes, which converted it into shear-steel and cast-steel. Blister steel was NOT a one off method for individual blades, but rather a method of making large amounts of steel - this method was developed circa the 1500's. James Hanson mentions in his Fur Trade Cutlery Sketch Book, that the bars of wrought iron used for making blister steel could be as large as 1/2" x 4" x 20 feet.

2) Shear-steel: Blister-steel was sheared into shorter, manageable lengths, heated, and tilt hammered to homogenize the steel which improved the quality. Several bars are welded together and drawn out. The bar is sometimes cut, fagoted, reheated, and again tilted. This may be repeated. The terms single shear and double shear indicate the extent to which the process is carried. It was widely used for blades of all types through the end of the 19th Century.

3) Cast-steel (aka crucible steel): Blister steel which has been broken up, fused in a crucible, cast into ingots, and rolled. The blocks of steel are melted in crucibles of re fractory clay, and the molten metal is poured into ingot-molds of cast-iron. These are opened, to let out the red-hot ingot, which is then passed to the rolls.
The process of making cast/crucible steel was developed by Benjamin Huntsman, of Sheffield, England, circa 1745. Oddly, crucible steel at first was not greeted well by the Sheffield makers while the French cutlers soon recognized it's qualities. The Sheffield makers even went so far as to ask the government for an embargo on the raw steel.
By 1840 the English had developed the cast steel method to the point that English steel made in this way became 40% (about 20,000 tons a year -
up from the 200 tons a year produced by the English using all previous methods) of all steel produced in Europe. Other steel centers of note during the period were: Germany (manganese and other trace minerals in the local ore made it a better than normal alloy), Spain, and Sweden). A few years later, in the 1850's, the Bessemer process was developed which increased steel production immensely.

FWIW - I've been black smithing since 1962 especially knives and hawks and understanding as much as possible about those of the 18-19th Centuries is an on going passion. I don't do much smithing these days though due to a severe neck injury, but I still like to keep up with the info available. Anyway glad to be of some help and I reckon one learns a few things over time no matter how slow one is........
 
Labonte thats great info you shared with us you got alot of knowledge
 
LaBonte said:
In a gas fired forge, forget it. There can be a significant loss of surface carbon in a gas forge.
No more so than with a gas forge if you know what you are doing.....
1) You can use a carburizing flame in a gas forge to control some of the loss just like in a coal forge

Both of your responses were excellent, in depth posts, Chuck. Good stuff there.

I will admit that my experience with gas forges is limited. My understanding is that most, if not all, good gas forges are fired by propane, so what I don't understand is how would one creates a reducing flame in a propane fired forge?

A reducing flame is easy when using an acetylene torch or a deep, coal or coke fed fire, but I don't understand how one can get a reducing atmosphere in a propane forge?

God bless
 
A reducing flame in a gas forge can be created by restricting the air that is mixed with the propane in the burner.
With a forced air burner this can be achieved by use of a variable speed blower or a valve with a fixed speed blower.
With an induced air burner, a simple movable plate over the air induction port will work.
Here is a pic of my induced air forge.

forge-2.jpg


Hope this helps.
Mike
 
some great info there , but why not bang out some blades , have some fun and get to the tech stuff later , experience is a great teacher . cheers..
 
Old Knfmkr said:
A reducing flame in a gas forge can be created by restricting the air that is mixed with the propane in the burner.
With a forced air burner this can be achieved by use of a variable speed blower or a valve with a fixed speed blower.
With an induced air burner, a simple movable plate over the air induction port will work.
Here is a pic of my induced air forge.

forge-2.jpg


Hope this helps.
Mike

That is some high tech forge. The technology of gas forges has apparently made a huge leap forward since I made mine from vague descriptions over 20 years ago. I used it for several years, but finally became disillusioned with it and went back to either coal or lump charcoal, whichever was most available.

How is fuel consumption? My old one would go through a 100# bottle in 8-10 hours, running at full throttle, which was one of the big reasons I became disillusioned with it.

Are plans available for your forge?

Thanks, and God bless
 
JD, it's the burner design that has advanced. My burner is made using plumbing parts and a .032 MIG tip as an injector nozzle. It's called a modified side arm burner. I run it at 2psig propane pressure. A 40# tank will give 65-70 hours. At 25psig, you should see the dragon's breath that one burner will put out.
The forge body was made from two freon refill tanks. With 2" of ceramic fiber insulation coated with 1/4" of refractory, it has a 5"x16" interior. When I built the forge wanted to be sure there was enough heat, so two burners were installed. I never use the second burner, one is more than enough. Mounting the burner from the side and tangent to the interior curve, gives a swirl effect for very even heating. No hot spots.
I didn't use any plans, but you can do a search for freon tank forge and find a lot of info.
Here are a couple of vendors for burner parts and insulation. http://refractory.elliscustomknifeworks.com/
http://zoellerforge.com/flare.html

If you have more ?'s, just holler.
Mike
 
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thanks Old Knfmkr,

that sounds like a very efficient forge. The burner of my old one was made of two or three different diameters of black pipe welded one inside the other, with about an 1/8 of clearance between them. This set up required a small blower to provide the "blast", so I can appreciate the newer technology.

I'll have a look at the web page you mentioned, and maybe I 'll experiment with the new generation of gas forges.

God bless
 
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