Fouling shots???
- Thread starter AZ hunter
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One, after that I swab every shot too maintain a consistant bore condition.
Others results may vary.
Others results may vary.
Little Wattsy
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AZ DCM said:
Give more detail...THAT dosnt sound right. What are you shooting? How old is the gun? describe your load and preshooting ritual. ETC...
I am shooting 60gr 3F Shutzen? Powder with a new Lyman Great plains 1/60 twist (about 100 rounds trough it)shooting prelubed patched round ball. I start with popping a few caps and swabing the barrel to clean out the bore butter. I then swab after every shot with a spit patch using both sides.
DCM
DCM
Little Wattsy
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AZ DCM said:
So some thoughts....
A) The barrels is probably NOT quite broke in yet and THAT will make a big differance.
2) I would swap out te "extra bore butter" with an alcohol patch and THEN pop 3 - 4 caps. (Actually I aim at a leaf or small piece of gravel on the ground, range 2 - 3 inches, to gage the amount of ooomph the cap is producing to ensure a clear channel)
C) Have you tried thicker patches? Have you looked at your shot patches for burns and tears?
3) Have you worked up a load in 5 grain increemnts looking for the MOST accurate load?
E) have you tried a bigger ball? .535 or .495 or... Did catch your caliber.
Bottomline, THAT gun should be able to spank the target on THE 1st shot. My GPR does after an alcohol swab and 3-4 caps. Load her up and bang! Dead target!
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Since you're getting good groups after a few shots I suspect it's something you're doing (bore preparation, loading technique, or shooting technique).
My .54 GPR shoots to point of aim on the first shot, and every shot thereafter. Mine didn't seem to require a break in period. The first five-shots (after three sight in shots) out of it when it was brand new formed a 1 & 1/2" 50-yard group. I don't use bore butter, just an oil swab after cleaning. I swab with an alcohol patch before the first shot and usually between shots. My standard load is a .535 ball with a .016 patch lubed with olive oil over 85 grains of GOEX FFFg.
Now, I've got to admit that regardless of what gun I'm shooting (even a super accurate .22 Hornet) on some days I don't shoot well for the first three or five shots. After I settle down and remember to do the things I should be doing my groups come together the way they should. When that happens I know it's me and not the gun, because I know what the guns will do.
My .54 GPR shoots to point of aim on the first shot, and every shot thereafter. Mine didn't seem to require a break in period. The first five-shots (after three sight in shots) out of it when it was brand new formed a 1 & 1/2" 50-yard group. I don't use bore butter, just an oil swab after cleaning. I swab with an alcohol patch before the first shot and usually between shots. My standard load is a .535 ball with a .016 patch lubed with olive oil over 85 grains of GOEX FFFg.
Now, I've got to admit that regardless of what gun I'm shooting (even a super accurate .22 Hornet) on some days I don't shoot well for the first three or five shots. After I settle down and remember to do the things I should be doing my groups come together the way they should. When that happens I know it's me and not the gun, because I know what the guns will do.
Are you removing the barrel wedges and the barrel from the stock when you clean it?
While this is the easy way to clean a rifle with a hooked breech, on many guns it does seem to contribute to a few wild shots the next time the gun is used.
I have no proof but I've always thought that when replacing the barrel in the stock after cleaning, it isn't fully seated in the barrel channel and against the barrel tang so a few shots are required to get it to seat in the right place.
While this is the easy way to clean a rifle with a hooked breech, on many guns it does seem to contribute to a few wild shots the next time the gun is used.
I have no proof but I've always thought that when replacing the barrel in the stock after cleaning, it isn't fully seated in the barrel channel and against the barrel tang so a few shots are required to get it to seat in the right place.
zimmerstutzen
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Whether fouling shots make a difference, IMO, depends alot on the rifling shape. Some is easier cleaned by just loading the next shot. Some do better with a shot or two then being swabbed "fairly" clean.
Another factor that can affect accuracy is barrel temperature, however more so with lighter barrels or guns with barrel bands. As the barrel heats it can warp ever so slightly, enough to change the point of impact. However, with a thick chunk of steel like a muzzle loader barrel, that is less likely.
When I shot competitvely on a rifle team in college with heavy barrel 22 rfs, we fired 10 shots before going for score. Those warm up shots made a difference.
Another factor that can affect accuracy is barrel temperature, however more so with lighter barrels or guns with barrel bands. As the barrel heats it can warp ever so slightly, enough to change the point of impact. However, with a thick chunk of steel like a muzzle loader barrel, that is less likely.
When I shot competitvely on a rifle team in college with heavy barrel 22 rfs, we fired 10 shots before going for score. Those warm up shots made a difference.
Tom Compton
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Zonie makes an excellent point. Some rifles w/ hooked breeches need to settle back into the groove after removal.
That said, when shooting competitively I always ran 1-2 shots onto sighter targets or into the burm to start the day and wiped between each shot to maintain consistent bore status.
TC
That said, when shooting competitively I always ran 1-2 shots onto sighter targets or into the burm to start the day and wiped between each shot to maintain consistent bore status.
TC
Since this is a fairly new gun, I have to ask if you scrubbed the factory bore preservative out of the bore. That packing grease is a real bear to get out, not to mention it will ruin accuracy until it's removed.
It could be that the accuracy only improves as the bore butter forms a coating over the remaining grease. :idunno: But it sounds good. :wink:
I suggest spraying brake cleaner into the bore, let it sit for a coupla minutes, and scrub it out with a green scrubbie from the grocery store.
Another suggestion is to get rid of the bore butter. That stuff will foul your bore so bad that it won't shoot, after a period of time.
IMHO, for just range shooting, plain old spit is as good as anything, and better than most lubes.
Just put a coupla unlubed patches in your mouth and suck on them as you prepare to load. They need to be wet. Not just moist, but wet. As wet as you can get 'em.
If this doesn't work, try Zonies suggestion.
Better yet, do both. :grin:
God bless
It could be that the accuracy only improves as the bore butter forms a coating over the remaining grease. :idunno: But it sounds good. :wink:
I suggest spraying brake cleaner into the bore, let it sit for a coupla minutes, and scrub it out with a green scrubbie from the grocery store.
Another suggestion is to get rid of the bore butter. That stuff will foul your bore so bad that it won't shoot, after a period of time.
IMHO, for just range shooting, plain old spit is as good as anything, and better than most lubes.
Just put a coupla unlubed patches in your mouth and suck on them as you prepare to load. They need to be wet. Not just moist, but wet. As wet as you can get 'em.
If this doesn't work, try Zonies suggestion.
Better yet, do both. :grin:
God bless
paulvallandigham
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Sounds like you have a problem with your flash channel, and powder chamber, not being flushed with alcohol to remove oils and grease, before loading the powder. Busting caps will sometimes burn out the crud in these tight places, provided there is a powder charge and wad in the barrel to raise both the Temperature, and the Pressure in the barrel to burn this stuff out. Otherwise, busting caps is largely a waste of time, and often even contributes to the hang-fires, misfires, and poor groups.
Your loading technique has to be able to put Powder down through the powder chamber, and towards the nipple in the intervening flash channel. You want powder under or as close to the bottom of the nipple( where the flame comes out) as possible to insure good ignition. Leave the hammer back at the Half Cock Position, before pouring the powder down the barrel. When you seat the PRB, air between the back of the ball, and the powder will filter through the powder and out through the flash channel and nipple. In the process it should take FFFg granules with it down into the flash channel, and fill it to the base of the nipple. ALWAYS Watch your nipple when you learn to see smoke and air coming out the nipple as you drive the ball down the barrel. If you don't see air or smoke coming out the nipple, its clogged and you need to clear it with a wire.
Your loading technique has to be able to put Powder down through the powder chamber, and towards the nipple in the intervening flash channel. You want powder under or as close to the bottom of the nipple( where the flame comes out) as possible to insure good ignition. Leave the hammer back at the Half Cock Position, before pouring the powder down the barrel. When you seat the PRB, air between the back of the ball, and the powder will filter through the powder and out through the flash channel and nipple. In the process it should take FFFg granules with it down into the flash channel, and fill it to the base of the nipple. ALWAYS Watch your nipple when you learn to see smoke and air coming out the nipple as you drive the ball down the barrel. If you don't see air or smoke coming out the nipple, its clogged and you need to clear it with a wire.
I'm going to take this in another direction. Perhaps it's not the rifle at all, maybe it's the shooter.
I mention this because it's something I can relate to. I have the same results as you every time I shoot, but it doesn't matter what gun I am shooting. It just takes me 3 or 4 shots to calm down so I can relax more and focus better on good shooting techniques, even when I shoot from a good rest.
Some people have a more sensitive nervous system than others, so with me, those first few bangs are a shock to my system. I tighten up like the spring in an eight day clock in antcipation of the boom before I pull the trigger, so it takes few shots before I get accustomed to the shock of the loud bang.
Also, even though I've been shooting ML's for over 30 years, I still get a little excited getting ready for the trip to my shooting range (which is just the desert around my house, about a 5 minute drive). So by the time I get ready to shoot, I'm hyped up like a kid about to enter Disneyland, too excited to concentrate.
Lastly, I tend to be overly critical of myself and put too much emphasis on that first shot being perfect (the perfectionist in me), which is the best recipe for bad accuracy. After I botch the first few shots, the "anxiety" disappears and I start to calm down and have fun. With calmness, comes tigher groups.
Maybe, like me, you just need to fire a few off before your focus comes into play. Something to think about. Bill
I mention this because it's something I can relate to. I have the same results as you every time I shoot, but it doesn't matter what gun I am shooting. It just takes me 3 or 4 shots to calm down so I can relax more and focus better on good shooting techniques, even when I shoot from a good rest.
Some people have a more sensitive nervous system than others, so with me, those first few bangs are a shock to my system. I tighten up like the spring in an eight day clock in antcipation of the boom before I pull the trigger, so it takes few shots before I get accustomed to the shock of the loud bang.
Also, even though I've been shooting ML's for over 30 years, I still get a little excited getting ready for the trip to my shooting range (which is just the desert around my house, about a 5 minute drive). So by the time I get ready to shoot, I'm hyped up like a kid about to enter Disneyland, too excited to concentrate.
Lastly, I tend to be overly critical of myself and put too much emphasis on that first shot being perfect (the perfectionist in me), which is the best recipe for bad accuracy. After I botch the first few shots, the "anxiety" disappears and I start to calm down and have fun. With calmness, comes tigher groups.
Maybe, like me, you just need to fire a few off before your focus comes into play. Something to think about. Bill
Dave Rosenthal
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Caffeine in the morning has an effect as well. After having two stents put into my heart back in October, I shot a match 5 days after coming home from the hospital. Won the pistol match with a score of 91 or better with my Walker, and then picked-up the rifle and shot a 50x50-2X from 50 yards off-hand, winning the rifle match as well using 370 grain Maxi's launched by 72 grains of 3Fg Goex. While in the Cardiac Unit, they wouldn't give me ANY coffee or tea, not even decaf!
They wrote me up in the Club's newsletter! Coffee and cigarettes constricts the blood vessels and raises the blood pressure :wink: .
I'm back on my morning coffee, and my scores have dropped-off some--not into the basement mind you, just a little bit, so who knows, maybe there is something to the caffeine thing :hmm: .
Dave
They wrote me up in the Club's newsletter! Coffee and cigarettes constricts the blood vessels and raises the blood pressure :wink: .
I'm back on my morning coffee, and my scores have dropped-off some--not into the basement mind you, just a little bit, so who knows, maybe there is something to the caffeine thing :hmm: .
Dave
paulvallandigham
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Dave: If you can wean yourself off caffeine, do it. It does restrict the Capillaries in your blood system, and, obviously, would do the same with small blood vessels located anywhere, including your heart!
Back in the 70s, after I finished Law school, and was married to my first wife, she began calling me the " Rice Krispie Kid", because my ankle, knee, and occasionally even my hip joints would " Snap, Crackle, and POP", when I went to the bathroom in the early morning hours. The house was so quiet she could lay in bed and listen to me going and coming back.
In 1982, I began teaching Hunter Safety as a Volunteer Instructor, and to learn more about necessary first aid, I visited the libraries and read books to supplement what was in the booklet used for the course. At a local Surplus store, I found a small bookshelf with a booklet written by a California MD on Hypothermia. For $3.00, I bought it. He explained how bad caffeine is on the circulatory system, and how much stress it adds to keeping warm in cold weather. He was a California Skier, who drove up to the mountains to Ski on weekends from him home near LA.
I decided to try his advice, and stopped drinking everything that has caffeine in it. That includes, Coffee, Tea, cocoa, chocolate, Coke, Pepsi, Mountain Dew, and many other soft drinks.
I substituted soup, and heated soft drinks, or homemade "cool-ade" for the caffeine laden drinks in my canteen, and water bottles. I now drink more straight water, than either soups, or sweetened drinks, but the later two are a great help when its really cold out to get some heat working in your body.
About a month after I got off the caffeine, my wife woke up completely when I came back to bed after my nightly constitutional, and asked what "Happened" to my Snap, Crackle and Pop?" My joints had stopped making all that noise.
The noise was from fluids building up in my knees, because the veinous return system of my circulatory system could not carry the fluids out of the joints when the capillaries were closed.
I have stayed off coffee since, and cut back on, and then stopped all together smoking. If you have already had stint surgery on your heart vessels, you need to stop drinking caffeinated drinks Right Now. If you Smoke, Stop. I still have my pipe, and keep a pack of tobacco in a drawer, like an alcoholic keeps a bottle in his cupboard, and I still love the smell of my tobacco. But, I do not smoke it.
Best Wishes. Paul :hatsoff:
Back in the 70s, after I finished Law school, and was married to my first wife, she began calling me the " Rice Krispie Kid", because my ankle, knee, and occasionally even my hip joints would " Snap, Crackle, and POP", when I went to the bathroom in the early morning hours. The house was so quiet she could lay in bed and listen to me going and coming back.
In 1982, I began teaching Hunter Safety as a Volunteer Instructor, and to learn more about necessary first aid, I visited the libraries and read books to supplement what was in the booklet used for the course. At a local Surplus store, I found a small bookshelf with a booklet written by a California MD on Hypothermia. For $3.00, I bought it. He explained how bad caffeine is on the circulatory system, and how much stress it adds to keeping warm in cold weather. He was a California Skier, who drove up to the mountains to Ski on weekends from him home near LA.
I decided to try his advice, and stopped drinking everything that has caffeine in it. That includes, Coffee, Tea, cocoa, chocolate, Coke, Pepsi, Mountain Dew, and many other soft drinks.
I substituted soup, and heated soft drinks, or homemade "cool-ade" for the caffeine laden drinks in my canteen, and water bottles. I now drink more straight water, than either soups, or sweetened drinks, but the later two are a great help when its really cold out to get some heat working in your body.
About a month after I got off the caffeine, my wife woke up completely when I came back to bed after my nightly constitutional, and asked what "Happened" to my Snap, Crackle and Pop?" My joints had stopped making all that noise.
The noise was from fluids building up in my knees, because the veinous return system of my circulatory system could not carry the fluids out of the joints when the capillaries were closed.
I have stayed off coffee since, and cut back on, and then stopped all together smoking. If you have already had stint surgery on your heart vessels, you need to stop drinking caffeinated drinks Right Now. If you Smoke, Stop. I still have my pipe, and keep a pack of tobacco in a drawer, like an alcoholic keeps a bottle in his cupboard, and I still love the smell of my tobacco. But, I do not smoke it.
Best Wishes. Paul :hatsoff:
Dave Rosenthal
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Thanks Paul :thumbsup: . My Cardiologist told me it was O-K for me to go back to coffee, but I find that I get my best sleep when I have fruit instead of coffee in the evenings. Satisfies that "sweet tooth", with less trips to the head! :haha:
I never smoked ciggs, but an occasional stogie (down to way less than one per weekend) keeps me from going completely nuts :youcrazy: .
So, yes, I'm trying to do the right things!
Dave
I never smoked ciggs, but an occasional stogie (down to way less than one per weekend) keeps me from going completely nuts :youcrazy: .
So, yes, I'm trying to do the right things!
Dave
hanshi
Cannon
This is a very interesting discussion. I often find that when I go out to shoot, my accuracy gets better and better up until fatigue takes over. My best groups frequently come 1/3 to 1/2 way through the session. To be honest, lots of days have me doing my best shooting at the beginning of a session and tapering off as the shooting progresses. A conclusion is impossible under these circumstances. I guess everyone has their own set of gremlins.
Thanks everyone for all the advice. I tried some of it this last weekend and did make some changes. One more thing that I am starting to do is stretching before starting to shoot. This seems to settle some of the nerves and allows me to relax more.
DCM
DCM
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