Fowler or Fusil W/ Rifled Barrel--Kosher?

[Cosmoline]

I'm in a bit of quandry. I really like the lines and heft of flintlock fowlers, but I find I do not like most flintlock rifles. The buttplates poke me, the length of pull feels wrong and the triggerguards are needlessly ornate. I've noticed some outfits selling fowlers with 20 bore rifle barrels, and I know a guy selling one locally. Looks and feels perfect to me. My only concern is, am I getting something that's considered an abomination? Was this ever actually done before modern times?

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about--a fusil with a 20 bore rifled barrel as an option:
http://www.caywoodguns.com/pricing1.htm

 

[Black Hand]

I'm in a bit of quandry. I really like the lines and heft of flintlock fowlers, but I find I do not like most flintlock rifles. The buttplates poke me, the length of pull feels wrong and the triggerguards are needlessly ornate. I've noticed some outfits selling fowlers with 20 bore rifle barrels, and I know a guy selling one locally. Looks and feels perfect to me. My only concern is, am I getting something that's considered an abomination? Was this ever actually done before modern times?

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about--a fusil with a 20 bore rifled barrel as an option:
http://www.caywoodguns.com/pricing1.htm

It's your gun and you can do what you want. However, I doubt that it was commonly (or even uncommonly) done as a rifle had one use and a fowler another. I suggest trying on a few more rifles before you decide, but by all means buy a smoothbore fowler. Having both really expands your options....

 

[thewho66]

I will agree that it was uncommon to have a fowler shaped stock with a 41+ inch barrel thats rifled. But if you look at an english game gun with a 30 or so inch barrel they did have both. Stock set up is about the same only lenght is different. Now I have a Caywood Wilson with a 20gauge barrel and a .50cal barrel like both, but to get the same feel ain barrels I would go with the .58 cal rifled barrel.

 

[Frank/Pa]

Check out one of Jim Chambers smooth rifles with a rifled barrel.
http://www.flintlocks.com

 

[Bryanbrown]

Cosmoline,

There are rifles with the similar lines of the English fowler, the Jim Chambers http://www.flintlocks.com/rifles01.htm has similar lines in the but. I am not sure if stock fit or barrel length are your driving preference,

And there as several British military rifles that have similar lines but would be more "custom" builds as I am not aware of parts for them.

If I may be so bold if you prefer the feel of a fowler why are you thinking of a rifle? With patched ball you will have little trouble getting hunting accuracy within 100yard from a smoothbore. And you have the option of shooting shot as well.

Or do like many of us and build both, it is an addiction

Bryan K. Brown www.gunsmithy.com www.jaegerkorps.org
[email protected]
[email protected]

Alle künst ist umsunst wenn ein Engle auf dem Zundlocke brünst.

 

[Cosmoline]

Well this is the one I'm looking at:

To me that looks like a Fowler, but it has a 20 bore rifled barrel. But I'm no expert and maybe there were rifles that looked like that. What I like is the shape of the buttstock and the simple triggerguard.

 

[Black Hand]

Looks like a fowler with a patchbox to me....

 

[J.D.]

I'm in a bit of quandry. I really like the lines and heft of flintlock fowlers, but I find I do not like most flintlock rifles. The buttplates poke me, the length of pull feels wrong and the triggerguards are needlessly ornate. I've noticed some outfits selling fowlers with 20 bore rifle barrels, and I know a guy selling one locally. Looks and feels perfect to me. My only concern is, am I getting something that's considered an abomination? Was this ever actually done before modern times?

I'm curious as to which styles or manufacturers of rifles that you don't like? A well made flintlock rifle should fit like a glove. Not all flint rifles have buttplates with that deep, punishing hook.

That said, there are at least three well known original rifles illustrating architecture reminiscent of classic English fowling guns. One is reputed to have been made in the 1760s, The "Faber" rifle thought to possibly have been made as early as the 1750's, and the "Newcomer gun" thought to have been made in the 1780's, or so. So yes, there is a precedent for a rifle barrel on a fowler stock, however, make sure the stock fits before ordering.

The 1760s fowler stocked rifle sports rifle furniture and a 36 inch firing 27 balls to the pound (55 cal). The Faber rifle has a 41 inch long barrel of 60 cal and fowler mounts. The Newcomer gun sports fowler furniture, and a 41 inch, 43 cal barrel. All three have sliding wooden patchboxes.


God Bless,
J.D.

 

[Cosmoline]

Well that is interesting. I had no idea.

Comfort-wise, I just don't care for triggerguards that have any points, swoops, or hooks of any kind. To my mind a triggerguard should be a simple round covering like you find on a fowler, fusil or trade gun. I also do not want to have to worry about snagging some swooping Jaegerish ornation on the devil's club or alder branches. The buttplate issue is also just a matter of comfort. I have massive shoulders and I like a buttplate I can work into place without jabbing into a corner. But it's just a question of preference.

 

[tg]

"Comfort-wise, I just don't care for triggerguards that have any points, swoops, or hooks of any kind. To my mind a triggerguard should be a simple round covering like you find on a fowler, fusil or trade gun. I also do not want to have to worry about snagging some swooping Jaegerish ornation on the devil's club or alder branches.'

How many rifles with standard grip rails have you had experience with in hunting situations, and what style were they? I have yet to hang up a triggerguard on anything in the bush using many different rifles.

 

[Cosmoline]

Maybe they're fine, but I still don't like the feel of them at all. Maybe it's because they don't fit my hands.

 

[tg]

I am just curious what all you have tried the gun you show in the pic looks to have a French style buttstock that if not properly fitted in a .62 with a stout load could wack you good on the cheek, it would be nice if you could shoulder or shoot a variety of guns, I just hate to see you get something that is not going to work, I really think that one of the early rifles mentioned before with the fowler furniture and a more moderate caliber unless you need a .62 a .54 or .58 will take any game in NA would probably do you better than a rifle on a fowler frame so to speak, I have a Chambers early Virginia .62 smoothrifle that handles very well and is easy to shoot with heavy loads should the need arise, this is more what you may be looking for, an early type gun with straighter stock and wide buttplate, good luck with your quest the right gun is out there, I am certain you will find it.

 

[Dphar]

I'm in a bit of quandry. I really like the lines and heft of flintlock fowlers, but I find I do not like most flintlock rifles. The buttplates poke me, the length of pull feels wrong and the triggerguards are needlessly ornate. I've noticed some outfits selling fowlers with 20 bore rifle barrels, and I know a guy selling one locally. Looks and feels perfect to me. My only concern is, am I getting something that's considered an abomination? Was this ever actually done before modern times?

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about--a fusil with a 20 bore rifled barrel as an option:
http://www.caywoodguns.com/pricing1.htm

I once saw a light "fowler" at a gunshow that was labeled as a "militia rifle" I had to ask and the owner told me to look down the bore. It was about 60 caliber at the muzzle and was smooth for about 4" then was rifled with the groove depth being about equal to the smooth section.
It have a tiny rear sight and a generic front sight.
It looked smooth and in battle field conditions may have saved someone from the bayonet in certain conditions.
I would go with something that would shoot a .530-.535 ball. 20 bore can make a lot of recoil with rifle loads and sometimes they like a lot of powder to shoot well.
54 is as HC as any other.

Dan

 

[Cosmoline]

Interesting, it sounds like there was quite a bit of diversity in 18th century arms.

I'm not too worried about recoil. It's a sizeable rifle and I cut my teeth with Brenneke magnum slugs and hot .45-70's out of undersized trail guns. As long as that stock will hold out I'll be fine. I like the idea of the 20 bore because it gives an extra kick in the pants to a large roundball and is at least borderline acceptable for the big bruins around here (I'm in Alaska). Plus it's new and interesting. I'm also making myself a .54 smooth rifle from a kit. I'd kind of like to have a "little" fifty four and a big twenty bore.

 

Frank,
I wasn't aware that a "smooth" rifle had a rifled barrel!!
Mark :hmm:

 

[Stumpkiller]

If you're snagging a grip rail in an alder thicket then the hammer and frizzen must be REAL headaches. The grip rail is under my fingers when I waltz my 59" overall Cherry Girl through the wild rose and thornapple tangles hereabouts. I can see the taste and personal preferance for a simple trigger bow (I like my New Englander's simple arrangement) but it certainly is not a functional "hang-up" that should cause you a second's worry. Not an issue.

Find a rifle, fusil or whatever you do like and measure it carefully. On a custom rifle the smith can fit the stock to you. My .54 Lehigh rifle is based on the dimensions of my Ithaca/SKB 200E 20 bore side-by-side shotgun with just a slightly longer length-of-pull and I love it for offhand shooting. She mounts fast and with the sights "on" as soon as my cheek touches the comb. It altered the "classic" lines of a Lehigh slightly, but not so much as to be outside the realm entirely. Being an older style the buttplate is 2" wide and 4-1/2" tall and it is comfortable on the shoulder - no coincedence in that choice for me, either. The later style Lehighs and Bedfords can be no fun in the larger calibers.

 

[Cosmoline]

Stumpkiller that's a great idea. I'll try it with this .54 SR kit and give it the dimensions of my favorite Mosin.

 

[K9_75]

If you would consider a gun not commonly used on the American shores you could look over to the other side of the ocean.

In Sweden were I hail from there's a lot of guns that Americans usually gets in trouble over when they try to decide their age and origines by looking at the style they are built in.

Sweden has always been a melting pot when it comes to guns as there were smith's from other countires here and a lot of ours got their education in other countries.

One thing that is not common here at all is the curved buttplate - it seems to be an American thing. The almost flat "fowler" type is the most common (as is the "fowler" type trigger guard). There's a lot of rifles here that on this board definetly would be called fowlers til someone looked down the bore.... :wink:
//K9

 

[Cosmoline]

I've noticed my old ancestors in Scandinavia make rifles I like. The iron sights are particularly good. I'd like to go on a buying trip over there one of these decades, when I have actual money.

My secret plan is to take this gun moose hunting. The moose will see the gun and they'll be like "oh that's just a fowler, he be huntin' stupid chickens." But then they'll see the rifling and it will be too late.

 

[Bryanbrown]

There are certainly examples of rifled barrels in stock lines commonly associated with fowlers. I would reiterate my question as to what is driving the desire for a rifle versus a smooth bore? Unless you are planning on hunting beyond 100yard ranges there is little benefit to a rifle and inside 80 yards I would consider a smoothbore a better choice. And the multi season (squirrel to bear) functionality of shot and roundball has certain advantages.

I have taken bear, deer and elk with my 69cal Lt Infantry carbine (and smaller game loaded with shot). I tend to think into the musket ranges of 69-85cal if I am looking at "bigger bore pieces" and not going up into Amusettes.

My Jaeger rifle is only a 62cal, but the second barrel can be a comfort

when thinking about bear or moose. And doing a LOT of living history as a Jäger with it over the last 12 years, in heavy brush briars and thickets, I have never once had a branch snag the trigger guard.

But that said it doesn't mean a piece like that would "fit" you. And I believe fit is important. One thing to keep in mind is the curly cue bits on a trigger guard are basically moving the shape more towards a pistol grip type of hold ergonomically speaking. If that doesn't appeal to you, don't do it.

If you are looking for a handy length comfortable shooter rifle that looks something like a smoothbore have you considered a Ferguson Ordinance rifle?

With 615 ball it is a nice shooter out to 200 yards and the issue sights are 200 and 300 yards. Loads musket fast too if a second shot is an issue.


Bryan K. Brown www.gunsmithy.com www.jaegerkorps.org
[email protected]
[email protected]

Alle künst ist umsunst wenn ein Engle auf dem Zundlocke brünst.