French Tulle Locks

[Zonie]

If your like me, if you decide to make a gun with a French lock on it, you will find that Davis makes two, very similar locks.
These are about the size of the Davis Jaeger lock, and indeed, they use some common parts.
You will also be told by many that these locks are not"correct".
During the past year, whenever I would ask "what is correct", I usually got answers like "go get this book....."
TG recently posted a nice picture of the lock he has modified, but beyond this, information has been scant.

The following lock photos were borrowed from the following site:
http://home.cogeco.ca/~fleurdelys3/tullefusil.htm
The work is by Simon Gilbert

I hope these photos help those of you who are striving to modify your purchased locks.

Below is a photo taken out of the Track of The Wolf Catalog showing the two versions of the Davis locks.

Comparing my Davis Fusil Type C lock with these photos of actual locks, the things that catch my eye are:
The size of the head of the Jaw Screw. Mine is much too large.

The area where the back of the upright area of the cock meets the lower area is too shallow. The cocks in the photos have a rather deeply cut area before the upright starts.
The Davis lock has a pronounced notch in the forward sweep at the lower part of the cock while the cock in the photos is a smooth transition.
I note in the TOTW photo, the Type D cock looks much more like the locks in the top photos.

The Toe or "stop" of the Frizzen of the Davis Lock has too much of a curl to it. Indeed, several of the locks in the photos have no curl at all.

The bottom of the pan on the Davis lock does not have the pronounced the triangular shape to it which I highlighted in the photos but it is close.
I did note that some of the locks shown do have a small flat on the bottom of the pan similar to the Davis lock.

Perhaps TG or some of the other knowledgable people on the forum can point out some of the other things I've overlooked

I am not smart enough to know if the Type C Davis lock represents a French Lock which did not appear in the website photos.

It may be entirely correct, but one thing I do know.

If you modify your lock to look like one of the ones in the above photos, no one can say "That's not correct".

 

[hawk]

Zonie the rifle shoppe has french tulle locks also mind you the assembled locks are $265.00 but only $95.00 for a set of castings.heres the sight http://www.therifleshoppe.com/french_arms.htm :thumbsup:

 

[tg]

The main problem with the two TOW locks shown is the lock plate shape, the bannana shaped plate went out of style around 1700 so neither lock can be made to correct for a later type gun which is what the majority of kits and builders offer, that is why I used the Davis Tulle lock, the for a gun circa 1720-30, for a later gun some feel the L&R trade lock will work as well.

 

[Henry]

Actually the Rifle Shoppe lock is a St

 

[tg]

Slow is the key word as Henry stated when modifying the frizzen, I don't think one can do anything with the TOW C and D locks, if I were going to build a TOW gun with the C or D furniture I would pot for the stock to be non inlett and use the modified Tulle lock or one of Caywoods locks, they are not bad as is but a bit shorter than the Davis lock which is a bit short to start with. possibly one might be able to make the TOW C lock work as an early lock of the period when the arched plates were still used and the flat plate and cock had come into style? probably a very narrow window 1710 or so? but then one gets into the barrel not being correct, as when you get back past 1720 the wedding band is absent, Henry or Tom could take this farther and better than I.

 

[Zonie]

Showing my stupidity again, if I look at the 1693 lockplate, it seems to have the curved lower area and the teat that the Davis lock has. The Davis lock seems to exaggerate them, but it is similar.

The 1700-1715 lock seems to show material where the bottom of the pan meets the lockplate. It is much less than the Davis lock, but it is there.
I might point out to those buying the Davis Type C lock, it has cast "engraved" lines which follow this larger pans bolster (shoulder) shape so reshaping bolster to be more like the lock in the photo will cause the cast lines to follow a non-existant mating feature.

 

[tg]

I find the 1715 lock interesting, I wonder how it was dated, I would have thought it to be later? The 1693 lock has a spur typical of some early locks, it might be tricky to modify the Davis lock spur, and again the Davis lock has some faint resemblace to the pre-1700 French locks but hardly enough to be made to work,particularly on a later gun which the rest of the parts would be correct for. someone just took a Jaegar lock and tweaked it a bit, probably without much researh if any on French guns, this is common to try and make current production items stretch as far as possible.

 

[Henry]

"...The 1693 lock has a spur typical of some early locks, it might be tricky to modify the Davis lock spur, and again the Davis lock has some faint resemblace to the pre-1700 French locks but hardly enough to be made to work.... "

Just pure and simple curiosity : Who would be
interested by a pre-1700 gun ?
Here , in the North East , the F&I war re-enactment
is about the earlier period that is really popular .
We do a 1704 period event in march but
earlier than 1701 , before the great peace treaty
of Montr

 

[tg]

I guess some may want to carry a gun from an earlier time period than they are into, I made a 1720-30 gun and try for a 1760-70 time period.

 

[Zonie]

"... Unless one really wants to portray a lone hunter
between 1691 and 1701 , the need for a 1691
hunting gun is quite limited ..."

I own two guns which are over 150 years old, two more that are over 120. All of them have locks which work as well as they did when they were new.

I would suspect that old lockplates and locks were recycled, so a 1690s French lock could have shown up in later years.

See? I didn't make any snide remarks about French Quality. :: :: :: :: :crackup: :crackup:

Seriously, although screws rust and break and cocks and frizzens may break, there's not a lot IMO that can go wrong with a lockplate that can't be easily fixed.

 

[Henry]

Of course , if an authentic 1685 came
close to home, I may lie , steal , cheat
and do these things bankers and politicians
sometime do , but since I have a less years
to go than the number of years already gones,
I would better spend time making a repro of a
Tulle ( two Rifle Shoppe kits waiting )
or of a wheel lock , Rather than a repro of
a 1685 .

 

[tg]

No doubt that olod locks were reused but not likely on a new gun from an armoury...like a 1690 lock on a 1720 trade gun, a parts gun project would be the best place to reused old parts and these are some neat guns that few get into...and for Henry, it is at times depressing when there are more grains of sand in the bottom of the hour glass than in the top.

 

[Okwaho]

A flintlock shotgun, L. Crevcy, Marseilles, ca. 1720. Round and smoothbore barrel in 15 mm calibre with a barrel rib and chiselled floral decoration at the breech. LightlyA flintlock shotgun, L. Crevcy, Marseilles, ca. 1720. Round and smoothbore barrel in 15 mm calibre with a barrel rib and chiselled floral decoration at the breech. Lightly chiselled, iron flintlock with the flat lock plate signed "L.CREVCY A MARSEILLES". Maple halfstock with (somewhat abraded) chiselled iron furniture. Replacement ramrod. Length 159.5 cm.





This is still in Europe. Not restocked (here at least). Eye-opener for me.
chiselled, iron flintlock with the flat lock plate signed "L.CREVCY A MARSEILLES". Maple halfstock with (somewhat abraded) chiselled iron furniture. Replacement ramrod. Length 159.5 cm.

http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/images48_gr/37649.jpg

http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/images48_gr/37649_b.jpg

This is still in Europe. Not restocked (here at least). Eye-opener for me.

This gun was posted on aother board and I will follow with a commentary on the lock which is germane to this thread.

 

[Okwaho]

Posted - 03/22/2005 : 02:07:47
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is an extremely interesting gun.It doubtless was originally a full stock but it's educational value is in the rest of the gun. The stock architecture is the Pied de vache or cow's foot pattern which was one of 2 basic patterns for the fusils de chasse,the other having a straight comb and a slight curve in the toe line.These guns were made in the Berain style and represented a much different style from the preceding Louis XIV guns.It is a fairly average gun compared to the fine French guns of Paris.Of the pied de vache guns extant probably as many as 75% have been restocked during their period of use and this one and another of which I have pictures have not in my opinion been restocked so here is another gun to study.The lock is of particular significance in that it shows the type of lock used on French guns both in France and those shipped to New France from the close of the 17th century until about 1720.Note the slight concave bottom on the bottom portion of the lock and the way it follows a downward line at the rear before rising slightly to the rear point.Earlier French muskets at the close of the 17th century had a more pronounced banana look BUT were round faced.Note also that the rear of the cock doesn't have as a narrow an opening on the rear and many French locks of this period are almost straight in the rear between the base and the gooseneck of the cock.If you are building a so called French Type C or D this is the correct lock not the Jaeger lock some have offered and sold for those guns.At the present time there are no commercially available locks for these early French guns that can be used without some reworking some of which could be drastic and involve making a new plate.If you are thinking about a Type C or D and want to use a precarved stock,fine just get a stock without a mortice for the lock and use another lock.R E Davis has a kit out that looks good if you want to build a fusil fin and I'm waiting to see how my friend comes out with his.
For those who are interested in the flintlock, get a copy of Torsten Lenk's "The Flintlock:it's origin and development"There are usually several copies available on[url] abebooks.com[/url]
Tom Patton
This will show the earlier style( Ca.1715-1729}. Note the similarity between thislock and the bottom outline of the R E Davis lock as opposed to the later L&R lock with the straight bottom line.
As to the TOW Jaeger locks, they are incorrect with a French gun except the 1696 Infantry musket and "possibly" a very early {17th century} St. Etienne}Even if you're making that musket you would still have to do sme heavy duty tweaking and reworking.
Tom Patton :imo:

 

[rich pierce]

I guess you really like that one, eh? It is a beauty.