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frissen hardening

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My Pedersoli Bess has begun to not spark half the time, regardless of changing or repositioning the flint. I think it might be the frissen needs to be rehardened.
Is there a good way to do that with out welding equipment?
 
Yep there is and its easy . All you need is some casenit from the hardware store and a common LP torch and follow the directions on the package. and you are done. Lonesomebob
 
Polish the face of the frizzen. Then find a melting pot with moten lead in it. holding the bottom of the frizzen with vice-grips, or pliers, dip the top of the frizzen into the molten lead, moving it around slowly until it reaches heat. You will know when that is because the lead that adhered to the frizzen when you first put it into the molten lead will fall off. Lead melts at about 650 F, and that is the correct temperature to heat the frizzen to to harden it. Let it sit in the lead a while longer to gain an even heat. Then quickly douse it in a pan of oil- be prepared for a surface fire, by having a lid, or some wide flat cover to put over the pan. Swish the frizzen around in the oil in circles to reduce the chance that it might warp. Now, remove and polish the black scale off the frizzen, with emery cloth, and then put the frizzen on a cookie sheet in an oven heated to 450 degrees. Use an oven thermometer to check the temperature, and don't rely on dials or buttons! Leave the frizzen in the oven to " cook " for 2 hours, and then just turn the oven off. Let it slowly cool over night. That will draw back the steel enough to temper it, and make it strong, but not brittle. You can repeat each of these processes several times, but always finish working on the frizzen by tempering it in your oven. When its done, put the fizzen back in the lock, and try her out.

I do not recommend the casenite method, as case hardening only hardens the surface, and a sharp flint cuts through that hard surface in a hundred or so strikes. Then you are back to doing this all over again. You should complain to the company because your frizzen was not properly heat treated before they sold it. The Italian makers subcontract out much of the parts work, and the only way they can fix a problem is to first know about it. They like selling guns here in the States, and I suspect they will send you a properly treated frizzen for your gun, free of charge. If you don't ask, you won't know.
 
Paul, seriously, are you feeling OK? You cannot harden any carbon steel I know of at 650o. It has to be above critical heat to harden it, and that would be from 1400o, to 1500o, depending on what steel it is. 650o would be a temper heat for a spring, after it was hardened. 450o is a tad high for the frizzen temper and is in the range of a knife temper. Jim Chambers recommends 375o for his frizzens, which are 1095 steel. I don't know what that Bess has for steel, but 375o should be pretty close for a temper.
 
I have never hardened a frizzen but have to disagree with the method described by the previous poster.
I am talking in general terms, but to harden steel it is heated to a medium red or slightly above the point where it becomes non-magnetic. It is then quenched in water, oil or air depending on the type of steel. The steel is now at its maximum hardness but is very brittle. To reduce the brittleness the metal is tempered by heating it to somewhere between 350°F and 1350°F. This reduces the hardness a little and the brittleness a lot.

A lead bath would not take steel to the temperature needed for initial hardening as it would be to cold.

Lead melts at about 650 F, and that is the correct temperature to heat the frizzen to harden it

650 F is a typical tempering heat, but initial hardening heat is more in the order of 1500 F.

Casehardening (including hardening with kasenite) might be a good idea as it will create a very hard exterior, while retaining a soft and ductile interior.

In considering the best heat treatment for a frizzen it would be important to know what steel it is made of. Does anybody know what the carbon content is of commercial frizzens? If low carbon steel is used, casehardening would be the only option.
 
Wick I see you posted just before i did. I am in full agreement with you, you are not the "previous poster" i referred to, but Paul.
 
Heating a frizzen to 650 degrees is not hot enough to harden. The critical temperature of 1450-1550 degrees must be reached to harden 1095 steel...IF the frizzen is indeed 1095. In my experience with a Petersoli bess, the frizzen may not be hardenable steel, and will need case hardening.

In my experience, it takes more than a single propane torch to heat a part to critical temp. I'm told that MAPP gas will do it, but I have never tried it.

The best way for someone to harden a frizzen without a forge or acetylene torch is to pack the part in a pea size lump charcoal inside a tin can. The charcoal should completely fill the can to within an inch or so of the top, and completely surround the part, with a minimum of a half inch of charcoal between the part and the sides of the can. The space at the top of the can should be filled with sand to prevent oxygen from reaching the part. The sand allows excess gasses to be vented off without oxygen getting to the part.

The can can be completely filled with charcoal if you don't have sand readily available.

A lid, or metal plate shuld be loosely placed on the top of the can, loose enough that it will fall off of its own weight when the contents of the can are dumped into the water quench.

Build a hot fire in your BBQ grill and rake out enough coals to surround the can. If you are using lump charcoal, get the charcoal going good, and carefully rake it around the can to the top.

Keep the coals going for at least an hour and a half. The can must remain red hot for a minimum of an hour, longer is better.

Dump the entire contents of the can, frizzen, charcoal, sand, lid and all into a 5 gallon bucket of hot water. Be careful here. Do this outside, 'cause hot charcoal ash will fly all over the place, as will hot steam. Wear safety glasses, a hat, and preferably long sleeves, and use the longest tongs, pliers, or whatever you have to handle the can when dumping. And Dump the can upside down, so all of the contents go into the quench. Don't let the part be exposed to the air longer than necessary. The can doesn't go into the quench, BTW.

Oh, it's a good idea to dampen the hat.

The charcoal does not have to be packed real hard just moderately. Charcoal does two things. It keeps the oxygen burned up that enters the can and also forms a carbon rich gas in the chamber. Iron has an infinity for carbon and the iron will adsorb carbon to a depth of about .010" pr hour at 1500 deg. F. Carbon can be absorbed it at lower temperature but a lot slower. It should be no lower than 1250 deg. F. to absorb carbon. Parts quenched below approximately 1400 degrees will not harden. Parts need to be quenched at 1500 degrees to harden well.

If you are in doubt as to whether the part is mild steel or tool steel, quench it in 130 degree oil or at least put a thin layer of light oil on the water. About a 1/16 inch layer of oil will do.

When the part cools, try scratching the surface with a file. If the file skates across the surface, the part is hard. Now, go into the kitchen and place your part in the oven at 350 degrees, for an hour and a half. The part needs to remain at 350 for that hour, so leave it in a bit longer. Longer won't hurt.

Most thermostats on kitchen ovens aren't very accurate, so it's a good idea to use an accurate oven thermometer, if you happen to have one.

When the frizzen has cooled, heat the toe and tail of the frizzen to a full blue color with a propane torch. Run the blue color up the tail, through the toe, and part of the way across the bottom of the to the edge of pan cover.

Be sure to heat this area to a full blue color. Frizzens often break at the joint of the tail to the pan cover, or at the screw. Tempering this area well will prevent breakage.

The heating element or top burner on a kitchen range should work to heat the tail and toe, though I haven't used them.

The frizzen should now be good for quite a few shots.

J.D.
 
You are all correct. I was thinking frizzen and writing about springs. sorry for the mistake. I still would use a torch to heat that frizzen up to its red heat and quench in oil to harden it, rather than do caseniting. I think casenite is perfect for hardening lock plates, buttplates, and other furniture that are made of steel, where you want a case hardened color finish on it. My fowler has that treatment on the various steel parts. I do not, however recmmend it for frizzens, simply from personal experience,when a frizzen I thought was doing fine, all of a sudden wouldn't throw a spark to save my life. Investigation showed that it had been case hardened, and that my flints had cut through that thin layer. I can't tell you how many shots fired were required to do that, because I didn't keep count. But I was on maybe my second box of round ball.

Thank you all for pointing out my mistake. I need to get better sleep before writing these things early in the day.
 
You are right about case hardeing, however, the longer one "cooks" a part in Kasnit or charcoal, the deeper the case hardening.

Blister steel was made by heating iron in a charcoal filled container until the carbon penetrated full depth, so the depth of penetration of the carbon depends on how long the part is "cooked" in a carbon rich environment.

If I remember correctly, it takes about 8 hours at 1500 degrees for carbon to completely penetrate someting like 1/4-3/8 inch thick steel, using this technique.

I don't know what steel Petersoli uses for their frizzens, but the frizzens on mine appear to be made of a low carbon steel. And yes, I have hardened these frizzens a coupla times using kasnit, but not the charcoal in the tin can technique. That comes next, and I'm gonna leave 'em at 1500 degrees for longer than an hour to get a deeper case.

I might add that in the event that those frizzens ARE hardenable steel, they will still harden full depth at 1500 degrees. Tempering to 350 degrees will bring them to the correct hardness for a frizzen made of 1095.

The advantage of packing a frizzen made of high carbon steel in carbon is that surface carbon lost through heating is replaced, and probably a little more, so the frizzen sparks better than it would have if merely heated and quenched.

I believe that even Chambers adds carbon to the surface of the frizzens on his locks, for the same reason.
J.D.
 
Perfectly alright Paul. everybody has those days. I was just very surprised in reading your post. I am not a fan of casehardening either, unless one can get it really deep around .020 or so. Some claim they can, I don't know. That said however, if the frizzen is not hardenable, although I believe it is, that may be all that can be done, other than to half sole it, which would be my choice in that case.
 
Agreed that half soling the frizzen probably would be a better choice, but Captain Outwater apparently doesn't have the equipment to do that.

The technique outlined above is the simplest, lowest tech way that I know of to harden any part. Anyone can case harden nearly any small part, using nothing more than a campfire, some sort of container, even one made of clay, and some water for quenching.

Half soling requires a grinder, or a good file and vise, a forge or torch and some small ability in forging and brazing the half sole.

The case hardening technique requires a little of nothing, and the end result is as good, for as long as the case lasts.

A good deep case can last a surprisingly long time.

Kasnit works well enough, but I haven't had the best luck with it, BTW.
J.D.
 
I had the same problem with a "Lott" lock that was popular on trade guns back in the 70's and early 80's. The frizzen had a case hardened surface that wore through. The frizzen would not harden with temperature alone. I took the frizzen and put it in a crucible packed with Kasenite and put it in the forge for about 4 hours as I recall. Then I quenched it and drew the temper, that cured the problem and it's still working today. The metal used for some cheaper locks is not tool steel but mild steel with a case hardening.
Some of the locks on CVA guns had the same problems when they first came out, the sears and tumblers just had a very thin case on them. We fixed several of them with Kasenite in the shop I worked in.

Regards, Dave
 
curt: I would suggest you contact Dave using the PT system. It sends private messages.

As you know, we really aren't supposed to advertise on the forum and if ole Dave says "sure! I'll fix you right up for $75." or something like that, I'll have to remove it.
 
i understand zonie .thanks i listed my e-mail so he could e-mail direct but im going to take your suggestion thanks again
curt
 

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