Frizzen Hardening?
- Thread starter pheenix99
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2020
- Messages
- 7,529
- Reaction score
- 21,144
- Location
- On the Border in Idaho looking at BC
this is almost impossible to quantify. there are so many variables involved.
with a correct setup you may never need to reharden.
i have a TC hawken that i squeezed 20 shots out of 100 tries from before i started threatening to wrap it around a tree. the frizzen was like butter.
finally broke down bought some caseinate (sp)? from TOTW and rehardened the thing. i have fired well over 200 shots from it since and had zero failure to spark. and only one flash in the pan!! it is the most consistent working gun i have.
i guess the only real advice i can give is if you start to curse the thing for lack of spark, don't hesitate to fix it. avoid trees.
with a correct setup you may never need to reharden.
i have a TC hawken that i squeezed 20 shots out of 100 tries from before i started threatening to wrap it around a tree. the frizzen was like butter.
finally broke down bought some caseinate (sp)? from TOTW and rehardened the thing. i have fired well over 200 shots from it since and had zero failure to spark. and only one flash in the pan!! it is the most consistent working gun i have.
i guess the only real advice i can give is if you start to curse the thing for lack of spark, don't hesitate to fix it. avoid trees.
Last edited:
Rock Home Isle
54 Cal.
I built a Pedersoli Brown Bess carbine kit…30+ years ago. The lock had difficulty sparking properly, so I sent the lock back to Dixie GunWorks to be rehardened. I have put thousands of shots through that gun, and she still sparks great.
ohio ramrod
75 Cal.
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2008
- Messages
- 7,473
- Reaction score
- 2,212
Basicly it just depends on the frizzen. A properly hardened frizzen will out last you. But a soft frizzen with a light case hardening may not spark well when new and need rehardened when new. I have had good results using the case hardening compound sold by Dixie gun works.
Not sure why I didn't take the variables into account. I guess I was just focused on an average figure or something. If I had a 20% spark rate, I'd definitely be demonstrating my proficiency in English profanities.
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2005
- Messages
- 5,244
- Reaction score
- 11,013
Hi,
Most modern made locks have frizzens made from high carbon steel. When they are hardened, they are hardened all the way through and then tempered so they don't shatter like glass. Theoretically, you should never have to reharden one. In the old days, they were made from wrought iron, which cannot be hardened, and were case hardened to create a skin of hardened high carbon steel that would spark. That skin could be shot through eventually. For historical reference, Brown Bess locks were expected to fire 40 times without a misfire and use 1 flint. The locks on French model 1763 "heavy" muskets were expected to fire 120 times without a misfire and use up 3 flints in that process. I have a Chamber round faced English lock that fired over 670 times without a misfire and is still going strong.
dave
Most modern made locks have frizzens made from high carbon steel. When they are hardened, they are hardened all the way through and then tempered so they don't shatter like glass. Theoretically, you should never have to reharden one. In the old days, they were made from wrought iron, which cannot be hardened, and were case hardened to create a skin of hardened high carbon steel that would spark. That skin could be shot through eventually. For historical reference, Brown Bess locks were expected to fire 40 times without a misfire and use 1 flint. The locks on French model 1763 "heavy" muskets were expected to fire 120 times without a misfire and use up 3 flints in that process. I have a Chamber round faced English lock that fired over 670 times without a misfire and is still going strong.
dave
I have rifles that have fired thousands of rounds, with no failure to spark due to soft frizzens.
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2020
- Messages
- 7,529
- Reaction score
- 21,144
- Location
- On the Border in Idaho looking at BC
I was negligent in listing some of the variables in making my lock spark and not wear out.
these are only what i had to do with the TC lock.
first thing i did was order a replacement from OxYoke. made for Lyman these are modified for the TC lock. Geometry is the same.
then i studied the geometry of flint to frizzen angles etc.
i found that no matter what length, bevel up, bevel down, etc the frizzen face angle was just wrong.
i heated and tweaked the cock to a better angle. then heated and tweaked the frizzen face to have a slight curve. this brought flint contact from 2/3rds of the face.
i then used the stuff from TOTW to harden the face. took three treatments to get it but i am old. everything takes three tries!
I have found myself grabbing that lowly TC Hawken 9 times out of 10 when i just want to sit, make smoke and smile!
the Lyman replacement is in a drawer.
these are only what i had to do with the TC lock.
first thing i did was order a replacement from OxYoke. made for Lyman these are modified for the TC lock. Geometry is the same.
then i studied the geometry of flint to frizzen angles etc.
i found that no matter what length, bevel up, bevel down, etc the frizzen face angle was just wrong.
i heated and tweaked the cock to a better angle. then heated and tweaked the frizzen face to have a slight curve. this brought flint contact from 2/3rds of the face.
i then used the stuff from TOTW to harden the face. took three treatments to get it but i am old. everything takes three tries!
I have found myself grabbing that lowly TC Hawken 9 times out of 10 when i just want to sit, make smoke and smile!
the Lyman replacement is in a drawer.
Sidney Smith
58 Cal.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2019
- Messages
- 2,210
- Reaction score
- 2,322
I bought this stuff called Cherry Red and tried it on a frizzen from a kit I tried to build. I went by several videos of how to harden it. Took it to work and had a guy heat it cherry red using an acetylene torch, then quenched in oil. Took it home and it wouldn't spark at all. I said to hell with that, and just bought a pre-hardened frizzen. You need to know exactly what you're doing or your results will be like mine. It will leave you scratching your head because you know you followed the instructions, but met with failure.
That was the first, and last time I tried to harden my own frizzen.
That was the first, and last time I tried to harden my own frizzen.
Sidney Smith
58 Cal.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2019
- Messages
- 2,210
- Reaction score
- 2,322
concho7
32 Cal
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2022
- Messages
- 15
- Reaction score
- 15
Go to U Tube for instruction on Case hardening Frizzen
ronaldrothb49
45 Cal.
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2021
- Messages
- 853
- Reaction score
- 1,462
I started shooting competition and building rifles back in the 70's. Could not begin to say how many thousands of shots I have fired with any of the rifles I have owned, Lets just say I was a very active shooter. I have NEVER had to re-harden a frizzen. On this page and others I follow every time there is a post about not getting sparks the first reply out the gate is you need to re-harden the frizzen when that should be the last thing you look at.
Saw a post recently where guy said he just got his first flintlock and took it out to shoot for first time. Fired 50 rounds and the more rounds he fired the less sparks till now he isn't getting any sparks. The first reply and 8 out of the first 10 replies were you need to re-harden your frizzen. The second most reply was your frizzen spring is too strong. Then came the mainspring is too weak. Lets see you were getting good sparks, then you started getting less sparks now your getting none. Could it possibly be the first thing to look at would be your FLINT.
Saw a post recently where guy said he just got his first flintlock and took it out to shoot for first time. Fired 50 rounds and the more rounds he fired the less sparks till now he isn't getting any sparks. The first reply and 8 out of the first 10 replies were you need to re-harden your frizzen. The second most reply was your frizzen spring is too strong. Then came the mainspring is too weak. Lets see you were getting good sparks, then you started getting less sparks now your getting none. Could it possibly be the first thing to look at would be your FLINT.
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2020
- Messages
- 7,529
- Reaction score
- 21,144
- Location
- On the Border in Idaho looking at BC
Ah, Yes. Youtube. certainly will find "instructions" on hardening. and many actually work. some not so much.
love the one where it frizzen is wrapped in leather, "sealed" in a tin can and tossed into a fire. then demonstrated. without spark!
the very best instruction comes with the material used. but then most, including myself, always think there is a exclusive step only known to themselves.
Follow the directions and the cake is edible. and the frizzen will spark!
Ronald nailed it above.
1) If you suspect your frizzen is not sufficiently hard, test the frizzen you find suspect with a fine file. At the same time test one that works well. The file should mostly skate and not file the frizzen face.
2) If it is soft-ish then it requires re-hardening. 99% of frizzens are made of high carbon steel and so, harden through and through.
A) Unless carbon has been lost in casting, a through-hardening is in order, with no additional surface hardening treatments or compounds needed. If you have experience in hardening and tempering steel, try re-hardening with no compounds added. If you don’t have experience, hire the job out. Harden a piece of spring steel at the same time as you attempt to re-harden the frizzen to control for technique. Of course if you do this you know about tempering the whole frizzen then the toe a little extra.
B) If the spring steel hardens but the frizzen face does not, the frizzen face lacks sufficient carbon. Do not use Kasenit or Cherry Red unless you want to do this every couple hundred shots. Do a deep pack charcoal case hardening at critical temp for an hour and a half. This is not for the inexperienced to try over a campfire or in the wood stove despite what others say. Always include a piece of mild steel like coat hanger wire to see if your technique worked. Always test with a file to see if it got hard before tempering.
C) Alternatively consider putting a high carbon face on the frizzen. This is a whole nother topic deserving it’s own discussion and is not for the inexperienced to do.
Gunsmiths were trained for years. Nowadays folks think a forum chat and YouTube video views equip everyone to do heart surgery. It’s not so.
1) If you suspect your frizzen is not sufficiently hard, test the frizzen you find suspect with a fine file. At the same time test one that works well. The file should mostly skate and not file the frizzen face.
2) If it is soft-ish then it requires re-hardening. 99% of frizzens are made of high carbon steel and so, harden through and through.
A) Unless carbon has been lost in casting, a through-hardening is in order, with no additional surface hardening treatments or compounds needed. If you have experience in hardening and tempering steel, try re-hardening with no compounds added. If you don’t have experience, hire the job out. Harden a piece of spring steel at the same time as you attempt to re-harden the frizzen to control for technique. Of course if you do this you know about tempering the whole frizzen then the toe a little extra.
B) If the spring steel hardens but the frizzen face does not, the frizzen face lacks sufficient carbon. Do not use Kasenit or Cherry Red unless you want to do this every couple hundred shots. Do a deep pack charcoal case hardening at critical temp for an hour and a half. This is not for the inexperienced to try over a campfire or in the wood stove despite what others say. Always include a piece of mild steel like coat hanger wire to see if your technique worked. Always test with a file to see if it got hard before tempering.
C) Alternatively consider putting a high carbon face on the frizzen. This is a whole nother topic deserving it’s own discussion and is not for the inexperienced to do.
Gunsmiths were trained for years. Nowadays folks think a forum chat and YouTube video views equip everyone to do heart surgery. It’s not so.
- Joined
- May 5, 2021
- Messages
- 225
- Reaction score
- 531
When I bought my flintlock pistol I could not get it to fire consistently due to poor sparking. The first 50 shots were close to half failures to ignite the pan powder. I tried several different flints, bevel up, bevel down, moved closer, moved farther away, no go. In the back of my mind I thought it must be something I was doing wrong as I was pretty new to flinters. And yet my flintlock rifle was working well from day one without any of these problems.
Finally out of ideas, I installed a new frizzen and the problems disappeared. I've since run over 700 rounds through that pistol with a very low failure rate. I can't help but think the factory frizzen was just improperly hardened, so I thought I'd try rehardening it. After a little research I came to the conclusion that there was no future in that course of action. I'd have more money tied up in the project than I did in simply buying another frizzen.
It's my understanding that when using those products to reharden a frizzen it only gets case hardened and will wear through eventually while new frizzens these days are through hardened and should last indefinitely. My rifle has over 1300 shots on it's factory frizzen, shows no extreme wear, and still sparks well. The pistol originally just got a bad one from the factory.
Finally out of ideas, I installed a new frizzen and the problems disappeared. I've since run over 700 rounds through that pistol with a very low failure rate. I can't help but think the factory frizzen was just improperly hardened, so I thought I'd try rehardening it. After a little research I came to the conclusion that there was no future in that course of action. I'd have more money tied up in the project than I did in simply buying another frizzen.
It's my understanding that when using those products to reharden a frizzen it only gets case hardened and will wear through eventually while new frizzens these days are through hardened and should last indefinitely. My rifle has over 1300 shots on it's factory frizzen, shows no extreme wear, and still sparks well. The pistol originally just got a bad one from the factory.
Phil Coffins
69 Cal.
Metallurgy is a science not an art. To do good work you need to know something about this work. A good example is heating to cherry red (what temperature is that?) then dropping in oil (what oil and is it cold, hot or in between?) then the amount of time at temperature. Some steels are quenched in oil, others in water. I’ve used steel that is air cooled but some require a brine quench. Then add in the draw or temper step. Much to know before you begin.
Sorry, but that could be a very incorrect idea. While, youtube has a lot of good information, I have seen some things that were not good at all. Check out several youtube posts before messing with your frizzen.
Phil Coffins
69 Cal.
And a U Tube shows a guy dressed up and squatting over a fire isn’t a good sign for useful heat treat tips!
FlinterNick
69 Cal.
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2018
- Messages
- 3,903
- Reaction score
- 2,934
Most frizzens today are made of 6150 steel which is an oil hardening steel, however it will never get hard enough with an oil quench, so you need to use water.
I’ve never had any issues with a 6150 frizzen cracking in a water quench after tempering. Only springs made of 6150 I’ve had crack in a water quench. I use oil for springs, but i have successfully hardened 6150 springs with a water quench simply by keeping the heat around 1350, very hard to accomplish this with a propane torch, you’ve got to be really good at estimating heated colors and shades of red and orange.
I set my oven at 1550 and pack the frizzen in compound with char coated made of peach Pitts. The peach Pitts have a natural cyanide in them that helps the absorption of the carbon. I’ve tested this on a flint strikers and it works wonderfully and then draw back the frizzen at 350 for 45 min.
I’ve never had any issues with a 6150 frizzen cracking in a water quench after tempering. Only springs made of 6150 I’ve had crack in a water quench. I use oil for springs, but i have successfully hardened 6150 springs with a water quench simply by keeping the heat around 1350, very hard to accomplish this with a propane torch, you’ve got to be really good at estimating heated colors and shades of red and orange.
I set my oven at 1550 and pack the frizzen in compound with char coated made of peach Pitts. The peach Pitts have a natural cyanide in them that helps the absorption of the carbon. I’ve tested this on a flint strikers and it works wonderfully and then draw back the frizzen at 350 for 45 min.
Similar threads
