frizzen to pan seal
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Brokennock
Cannon
Okay. I guess I'm dense. That's 2 or 3 for "the frizzen screw hole is off." Well, I would think if it was the hole being off, the pan would seal with the screw removed and the holes would be misaligned withe the pan sealed. But with the spring off and screw out the bottom of the frizzen still won't sit flat on the pan sealing it. Can someone please explain what they see that shows that the screw holes are off? I'm not disagreeing, but I'm just not seeing it and want to learn.
I am in the same boat, I have an old Gustomsky Sitting Fox lock on a trade gun that has such a bad pan fit as to dump the prime if you tilt the gun. The frizzen screw hole is off a mile, way to high and tilts the pan cover low on one side and high on the other.
Even with the frizzen screw out the pan won't seal, everything looks like it wasn't made to fit. The overall fit and finish of the lock is terrible.
I have thought about a lock replacement but the gun's barrel is not much better than the lock, a little pitted with a real tight spot about halfway down, the gun might not be worth the investment.
Even with the frizzen screw out the pan won't seal, everything looks like it wasn't made to fit. The overall fit and finish of the lock is terrible.
I have thought about a lock replacement but the gun's barrel is not much better than the lock, a little pitted with a real tight spot about halfway down, the gun might not be worth the investment.
Brokennock
Cannon
Fortunately my lock isn't that bad. 4f doesn't even leak from the gap. I'm betting most average owners/shooters wouldn't even notice it, I didn't spot it for almost a year.
Without seeing the lock in person, I can't say if the screw is off or not.
But, for most of the flint locks I have had, good ones and the El Cheapos, the use of a flat diamond file on the top of the pan and/or the bottom of the frizzen cover has always been helpful is reducing or eliminating the gap. Takes only a few minutes for that simple tune up.
But, for most of the flint locks I have had, good ones and the El Cheapos, the use of a flat diamond file on the top of the pan and/or the bottom of the frizzen cover has always been helpful is reducing or eliminating the gap. Takes only a few minutes for that simple tune up.
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Brokennock said:
First you have to visualize that the flat of the frizzen (that should fit flat on top of the pan) swings in an arc.
If the screw hole is too low in the frizzen, that causes the forward part of the flat of the frizzen to contact the front of the pan and not allow the flat of the frizzen to go all the way down on the rear of the pan.
If the screw hole is too high in the frizzen, then the flat of the frizzen is going to hit on the rear part of the top of the pan.
When locks are traditionally made, the bottom of the flat of the frizzen is fit to the top of the pan. THEN the frizzen and pan are held tightly together and the screw hole is drilled and preferably finish reamed. That finish reaming helps ensure the holes through the frizzen, lock plate and pan bridle arm ALL properly align AND are perpendicular to the length and width of the lock plate. Then the parts are hardened and perhaps a little final adjustment is necessary due to any metal warping from the heat treating.
Does this help?
Edited to add: As to your question can this be fixed by a layman? It all depends on if you can weld up the hole in the frizzen, fit the bottom of the frizzen flat to the top of the pan, drill and ream a new screw hole in the frizzen correctly, then reharden the area of the frizzen that has the new hole in it.
Gus
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I had to refit the frizzen to priming pan fit on many of the Brown Bess locks for my old Military Reenacting Unit and that was for Pedersoli and Japanese/Miroku Besses. The India made guns had not come out yet. The reason was many of them were losing all or most of the priming pan charge when doing the "Cast About" as part of the Manual of Arms when loading and firing.
If I did not have to reharden the frizzen, as it seems you do not have to do, then it made it much easier and especially if the fit of the frizzen to pan was not grossly off.
I have been trained to file steel FLAT, by hand with a hand file. So the first thing I did was wrap some 120 Grit Emory Cloth around a flat file and gently go over the bottom flat of the frizzen just to make sure it was flat. For most of the frizzens, I did not have to take much metal off, but for some I did. After I got it flat, I went over it with emory cloth of 180, 220, and finally 340 grit to polish it. This mainly to help keep it from rusting as easily when lightly oiled.
Then I put a layer of Dykem Lay Out Dye on the top of the pan and that includes the top of the "support arms" (that is referred to as the pan bridle) ahead of the pan. Actually, there is no need for the bottom of the frizzen to contact the top of the support arms, so I filed them down a few thousandths lower than the top of the pan.
Then I put the frizzen screw through the frizzen, but no frizzen spring. I smacked the frizzen down with a soft mallet and when the frizzen is raised, the now bare spots showed the "high spots" that had to be filed down.
To file down the high spots on top of the pan, you can use diamond files or wrap emory cloth around a flat file and use that to file the hardened surface down. After a little sanding/filing, you need to re-coat the top of the pan with candle black, black magic marker or dykem and whack the frizzen down again to see how the fit is progressing. It is a file/sand and check progress until the frizzen fits down well on top of the pan. I guess I went a little overboard on the muskets I did, because I worked the fit until almost no light showed between the parts.
Oh, I don't believe it is necessary to reharden the top of the priming pan or even the bottom of the frizzen when doing such work, unless you have to take a LOT off the bottom of the frizzen. When I say "a LOT" I mean 10 thousandths or more off the bottom of the frizzen and I never found that necessary.
Oh, I just had an idea. Do you happen to have a feeler gauge set that is commonly used to test the gap on spark plugs? If so, it would probably be a good idea to use it to check the gap at the back of the pan and inform us how much gap there is back there when the frizzen is closed down as it now stands.
Gus
If I did not have to reharden the frizzen, as it seems you do not have to do, then it made it much easier and especially if the fit of the frizzen to pan was not grossly off.
I have been trained to file steel FLAT, by hand with a hand file. So the first thing I did was wrap some 120 Grit Emory Cloth around a flat file and gently go over the bottom flat of the frizzen just to make sure it was flat. For most of the frizzens, I did not have to take much metal off, but for some I did. After I got it flat, I went over it with emory cloth of 180, 220, and finally 340 grit to polish it. This mainly to help keep it from rusting as easily when lightly oiled.
Then I put a layer of Dykem Lay Out Dye on the top of the pan and that includes the top of the "support arms" (that is referred to as the pan bridle) ahead of the pan. Actually, there is no need for the bottom of the frizzen to contact the top of the support arms, so I filed them down a few thousandths lower than the top of the pan.
Then I put the frizzen screw through the frizzen, but no frizzen spring. I smacked the frizzen down with a soft mallet and when the frizzen is raised, the now bare spots showed the "high spots" that had to be filed down.
To file down the high spots on top of the pan, you can use diamond files or wrap emory cloth around a flat file and use that to file the hardened surface down. After a little sanding/filing, you need to re-coat the top of the pan with candle black, black magic marker or dykem and whack the frizzen down again to see how the fit is progressing. It is a file/sand and check progress until the frizzen fits down well on top of the pan. I guess I went a little overboard on the muskets I did, because I worked the fit until almost no light showed between the parts.
Oh, I don't believe it is necessary to reharden the top of the priming pan or even the bottom of the frizzen when doing such work, unless you have to take a LOT off the bottom of the frizzen. When I say "a LOT" I mean 10 thousandths or more off the bottom of the frizzen and I never found that necessary.
Oh, I just had an idea. Do you happen to have a feeler gauge set that is commonly used to test the gap on spark plugs? If so, it would probably be a good idea to use it to check the gap at the back of the pan and inform us how much gap there is back there when the frizzen is closed down as it now stands.
Gus
With the lock off of the gun & the frizzen down, hold it up to the light & look inside the closed pan. You will see light coming in where the fit is poor. You will also see where the edge of the pan is touching the frizzen.
These high spots where no light comes in need to be carefully filed down to close the gaps where the light does get in.
Keep working slowly & finely till you see no light coming in.
O.
These high spots where no light comes in need to be carefully filed down to close the gaps where the light does get in.
Keep working slowly & finely till you see no light coming in.
O.
Brokennock
Cannon
Yes it helps, thanks, but I'm still not convinced the screw holes are the issue,,,, but,,, I'm also not convinced they're not.
In answer to the questions in your edit,, no. I don;t have the means to do any welding.
Seeing as it doesn't leak powder, and the lock cover I made seems to work (I've been out a couple times in the rain with no issues), I think I'll leave it alone till I can have a pro work on it.
But I thank everyone for their input and help.
In answer to the questions in your edit,, no. I don;t have the means to do any welding.
Seeing as it doesn't leak powder, and the lock cover I made seems to work (I've been out a couple times in the rain with no issues), I think I'll leave it alone till I can have a pro work on it.
But I thank everyone for their input and help.
Brokennock
Cannon
Yup, spark plug gauges I do have. Right now I'm going to try to stop obsessing over it for the above reasons. But, when that fails, I'll measure the gap and report back. Thanks.
Brokennock
Cannon
Ummmm,,, you did see the pics at the beginning of the topic, right?
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Brokennock said:
A feeler gauge like the following is best to check it with as the blades read from Blade Thickness Maximum (in): 0.025
Blade Thickness Minimum (in): 0.0015: http://www.autozone.com/clamps-and...s-master-feeler-gauge/1927_0_0/?checkfit=true
However, if you have a spark plug gauge set like the following, it still will be somewhat useful, though the thinnest wire is or may be a bit too thick for the thinnest desirable fit: http://www.autozone.com/clamps-and...re-spark-plug-gauge/750018_0_0/?checkfit=true
Yes, it is best to lay it aside if you are obsessing over it and come back to it somewhat later. OH, depending on how much open space there is right now, you may not need to worry about welding up and drilling a new frizzen screw hole. It may just need sanding/filing down the high spots, as a lot of us have already mentioned.
Gus
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