Fur Trade Era Knife Sheaths

[JJC]

There appears to be little to none information on knife sheaths for the Fur Trade era. Does anyone know of any resources for them?

 

[Artificer]

The Fur Trade era covers many, many decades. Do you have a specific decade or two to narrow it down?

Gus

 

[Stony Broke]

I wouldn't think there would have been a standard for sheaths back in that period. A mountain man would have used whatever was available when he needed it...with little regard to appearance. I would imagine rawhide would have been used some, as it could have been formed easily when wet to fit the knife involved and would last a long time.

 

[Two Feathers]

Hi guys
I'm sorry for jumping in here after such a long period of time, but I just found this.
I have to agree with Stony Broke. Necessity IS the mother of invention! However I'm not a fan of Rawhide sheathes, due to the extraordinarily hard nature of wet rawhide when it dries, causing the "scratch factor." Plus, once it gets wet again it goes back to it's former pliable state. I am a fan of plain ole leather or Buckskin for PC sheathes, but as Stony Broke said, probably NOT a lot of thought went into making a replacement sheath.
Just my $.02, for what it's worth.
God bless:
Two Feathers

 

[JJC]

The Fur Trade era covers many, many decades. Do you have a specific decade or two to narrow it down?

Gus

You are right. So around 1750

 

[JJC]

I wouldn't think there would have been a standard for sheaths back in that period. A mountain man would have used whatever was available when he needed it...with little regard to appearance. I would imagine rawhide would have been used some, as it could have been formed easily when wet to fit the knife involved and would last a long time.

I wouldn't think there would have been a standard for sheaths back in that period. A mountain man would have used whatever was available when he needed it...with little regard to appearance. I would imagine rawhide would have been used some, as it could have been formed easily when wet to fit the knife involved and would last a long time.

I think you are correct. I posed this question to Dr. Hanson, Historian at the Museum of the Fur Trade. I recieved his reply in an email this afternoon. Basically he confirmed your thoughts. Knives were shipped without sheaths so sheaths developed out of necessity to meet the needs of the individual.

 

[Artificer]

You are right. So around 1750

Actually, there was a pretty common knife sheath during this period and it is called a "Center Seam" or sometimes a "Side Seam" sheath. Forum Member Brokennock and I were discussing this not long ago and he found this video on how to make one. It is a pretty good video on doing it.



Gus

P.S. A few years ago, another forum member Labonte (I think) posted a picture that showed this type of sheath was also commercially made in England during the period. Unfortunately, the pics are gone because of the past changes in photo posting sites.

Gus

 

[Stophel]

I have seen SO FEW 18th century knife sheaths, they're almost non existent. BUT, of the ones that are still around ALL of them that I have seen were center seam sheaths. And no belt loops (at least so far). I think basically they were not designed to be carried, but rather just to protect the blade and wayward fingers. I have seen a 17th century image of butchers with knives in sheaths dangling from strings tied to their belt/apron (and the image isn't all that well defined, as usual...), so, a couple of punched holes and a leather thong with which to tie/dangle from a belt would SEEM to be reasonably historical.

Center seam sheaths were actually produced throughout the 19th century, even into the 20th.... with or without belt slots/loops.
Marbles Ideal

Marble's Dall DeWeese

Green River fish knife

Obviously, these knives are all much later, but it shows the continuity of sheath style.

All pictures stolen from the interwebs.

 

[JJC]

Thank you so very much

Actually, there was a pretty common knife sheath during this period and it is called a "Center Seam" or sometimes a "Side Seam" sheath. Forum Member Brokennock and I were discussing this not long ago and he found this video on how to make one. It is a pretty good video on doing it.



Gus

P.S. A few years ago, another forum member Labonte (I think) posted a picture that showed this type of sheath was also commercially made in England during the period. Unfortunately, the pics are gone because of the past changes in photo posting sites.

Gus

Thank you so much. That is a great video. Does he have more videos? This really great information and the video how to

 

[Artificer]

Thank you so very much

Thank you so much. That is a great video. Does he have more videos? This really great information and the video how to

Go to YouTube and search for "woodcrafter76" where Steve Davis does have some more How To videos.

You are most welcome.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

I have seen SO FEW 18th century knife sheaths, they're almost non existent. BUT, of the ones that are still around ALL of them that I have seen were center seam sheaths. And no belt loops (at least so far). I think basically they were not designed to be carried, but rather just to protect the blade and wayward fingers. I have seen a 17th century image of butchers with knives in sheaths dangling from strings tied to their belt/apron (and the image isn't all that well defined, as usual...), so, a couple of punched holes and a leather thong with which to tie/dangle from a belt would SEEM to be reasonably historical.

FWIW, the original commercial center seam sheaths that LaBonte showed some years ago, all had two holes punched in them and a leather string to tie them to a belt or sash, etc.

Center Seam sheaths were the easiest kind of sheath to make, so they were most often the choice of inexpensive trade knives. However I've seen a couple of higher grade 18th century sheaths and pics of more that also showed this kind of stitching construction, which surprised me a bit years ago, because I thought center seam sheaths were only used for less expensive sheaths.

The other kind of 18th century stitching found on knife, bayonet and sword scabbards was what we call "butt stitching," as shown in the pic below. However, this requires a curved awl and preferably curved needles. Though it looks more esthetically pleasing, it is more labor intensive to stitch the leather together this way.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3b/b6/19/3bb6195f14bbb58055c64ba2b6c9b837.gif

MUCH to my surprise when I viewed some pics of original British Military Bayonet Scabbards excavated at Fort Ligonier, there were both center seam and butt stitched seam scabbards. Previously it was thought only Commercial and Provincial Bayonet Scabbards were made with center seams.

Gus

 

[Einsiedler]

Simple and utilitiarian. That ain’t cut to pieces by the blade being drawn and resheathed.

Edit

And I wouldn’t discount a piece of leather being repurposed from something else.

Jmho

 

[smo]

Mr. LRB makes a fine center seam sheath.....

 

[Notchy Bob]

There appears to be little to none information on knife sheaths for the Fur Trade era. Does anyone know of any resources for them?

The various responses above are good ones. The fur trade really got going on the North American continent in the 1600's, if not earlier, and you could argue that it never ended... There are still people out there, to this day, trapping beaver, badger, pine marten and so forth and selling the pelts for profit. However, I'm going to make a leap of faith here, and assume you are interested in the western American fur trade of the early 19th century.

I think your best resource for information will be the paintings and sketches done by Bodmer, Catlin, Kurz, Rindisbacher, and (especially) Alfred Jacob Miller. All of these artists were "there," and painted from life, although Rindisbacher, in particular, is said to have redone some of his images in the studio at a later date, and modified a few details.

As an example, the image above is by Karl (or Carl) Bodmer, and depicts an Assiniboine hunter whose name translates as "Nothing But Gunpowder." He is dressed for a winter hunt. Take a close look at his kit. You can see a sheathed knife peeking around his back. If you enlarge the image and take a good look, you'll see what appears to be a simple, one-piece, foldover style laced rawhide sheath, which is fairly broad. There is some material extending outside the line of laces. It is probably wide enough to accommodate a slot or notch for his belt, or it may be simply jammed in his belt. I can't tell if it was painted or not, but I doubt it was beaded... This would probably require a buckskin covering, and my take on this image is that this is a simple one-piece sheath. There is no welt or spacer. The knife is a big one. Some things you don't see on this sheath are dangling bits of fur, fluffy plumes, hairpipes, conchos, Hong Kong beadwork, or that sort of junk.

It is not inappropriate to comment on the state of knife sheaths these days. Vegetable tanned leather sheaths with thin rawhide coverings are all the rage. They look good and they are fun to make. I have made several. I'll go so far as to say they can even be practical, if you don't hang too much foo-fer-aw on them. However, whether they are made by me, or anybody else, they are not authentic. The first one I ever heard of was in an Orvis catalog in the late 1990's. It was beautiful, made by Karen Shook to house a knife by Daniel Winkler... but it was unlike any original sheath I had ever seen. Some people claim to have done extensive research in developing these sheaths, which may be true, but I think in many cases their creativity and enthusiasm have trumped their discretion.

Also, you just don't see that "X" stitching on old sheaths or leatherwork of any kind. The one sheath I have seen with "X" stitching appeared to have undergone a modern repair. Maybe someone can find an example and prove me wrong, and I will stand corrected. Until then, I would respectfully suggest that a simple whipstitch or running stitch may be more authentic, and was certainly more common.

There actually was a superb article written about knife sheaths that were used during this period of the fur trade. The article was by Rex Allen Norman, entitled "Encasing the Knife," in his The Far West column in the 2003 November/December issue of Muzzleloader magazine. Yes, this is a "secondary source," but Mr. Norman did his homework, and I believe you can rely on it. This back issue of Muzzleloader is actually still available, for $4.00. Go to the magazine's back issue page, click on "2003," and you should find it. There can't be many of them left, and the preceding September/October 2003 issue, which had an excellent article on the trappers' knives of that time and place, has sold out. I would recommend you order it now.

As Mr. Norman wrote in another of his articles, "The rendezvous of today can be like taking a trip in a faulty time machine." I appreciate the fact that you are wanting to "get it right!"

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Bo T]

You can see a sheathed knife peeking around his back. If you enlarge the image and take a good look, you'll see what appears to be a simple, one-piece, foldover style laced rawhide sheath, which is fairly broad. There is some material extending outside the line of laces. It is probably wide enough to accommodate a slot or notch for his belt, or it may be simply jammed in his belt. I can't tell if it was painted or not, but I doubt it was beaded... This would probably require a buckskin covering, and my take on this image is that this is a simple one-piece sheath. There is no welt or spacer. The knife is a big one. Some things you don't see on this sheath are dangling bits of fur, fluffy plumes, hairpipes, conchos, Hong Kong beadwork, or that sort of junk.

Also, you just don't see that "X" stitching on old sheaths or leatherwork of any kind. The one sheath I have seen with "X" stitching appeared to have undergone a modern repair. Maybe someone can find an example and prove me wrong, and I will stand corrected. Until then, I would respectfully suggest that a simple whipstitch or running stitch may be more authentic, and was certainly more common.


Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Do you consider a saddle stitch to be appropriate? Also, would that material hanging outside the sheath be a broken loop that had been used to help draw the knife from the sheath?

 

[Notchy Bob]

Genuine, pre-1850 sheaths are pretty scarce, and the ones we see tend to be the more highly decorated ones rather than the "working man's" sheath. The MIller paintings show mostly simple, fold-over type sheaths jammed in the trappers' belts, sometimes with something (? a trap chain link ? a length of leather thong ?) wrapped around the belt and sheath to keep the sheath secure. In many cases, I can't tell exactly how the sheaths were stitched or laced from the paintings or sketches.

If you Google rawhide knife sheath or parfleche knife sheath, you'll get a bunch of hits. Click on "Images," and you'll see quite a few originals, likely from the later 1800's. However, the materials and technology were available much earlier, and I would infer that sheath making didn't change much. The exception to that might be the use of harness rivets... I don't know when those came into common use, but I have seen photos of several northern plains sheaths that used them. I suspect these came later in the 19th century, but I don't know. Here is an example:

Anyway, most of the rawhide sheaths you see are held together with a running stitch of rawhide lace. I can't say for sure, but I think "Nothing But Gunpowder's" sheath may have been a double running stitch, which would be the equivalent of a saddle stitch done in lace instead of thread. I think the loose ends we see in the image are the ends of the lacing tied together. I don't think the thongs are attached to the knife:

The one rawhide sheath I have seen with X lacing looks like a later repair to me:



As an amateur leatherworker, one problem I see with X stitching, or whipstitching, for that matter, is that the thread or lace is exposed to wear on the edge of the sheath. I think a running stitch or saddle stitch would be more durable.

I believe the old plainsmen and trappers were pretty handy fellows. Recall that Kit Carson apprenticed in a saddle shop before he ran away to the West, and I'm sure he could have stitched up a leather sheath with no problem. However, I don't think the plainsmen necessarily made everything themselves. Considering that their world moved by horsepower, I expect there were saddlers and harness makers employed at the frontier forts along with blacksmiths, armorers/gunsmiths, and laundresses. I could envision a trapper asking the local harness maker to cobble up a sheath for his butcher knife, in which case the maker would have probably employed the skills he had, which would include saddle stitching. I'll freely admit, this is conjecture on my part, but I think it's a reasonable assumption. However, I don't know of an example to prove it.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Scarface]

I've noticed that it isn't "period correct" to use a knife sheath that has a loop in the back of the sheath to attach the sheath to the belt. I believe this to be a misconceived notion. Fur trade records state that belts were sold with sheaths attached to the belts. The sheaths would have been generic to fit trade knives of the period.

 

[Artificer]

I've noticed that it isn't "period correct" to use a knife sheath that has a loop in the back of the sheath to attach the sheath to the belt. I believe this to be a misconceived notion. Fur trade records state that belts were sold with sheaths attached to the belts. The sheaths would have been generic to fit trade knives of the period.

May I ask what period you are referring to, as in within a decade or so?

Gus

 

[Artificer]

What I don't know is when and if a more modern wrap around style sheath with a thick welt to keep the edge from cutting through the stitching was used in our period before or during the UnCivil War. The older patterns I've seen cover most of the knife handle, but I don't know when they started making them that way.

Gus

 

[Scarface]

May I ask what period you are referring to, as in within a decade or so?

Gus

Better late than never, I missed your post back in May. I'm referencing Fort Hall trade records so 1820's to 1840's era. I am still researching this subject as I am finding it very interesting. The "Rendezvous" era and what is reenacted seems to be against any sheath with a loop attached to the belt, yet they are using fancy beaded sheaths made out of brain tanned leather. I cannot find any evidence to show the historical accuracy of what is being used today. A knife sheath was a utilitarian tool that would have been simple, but useful and really no different that what was used earlier like the Revolutionary War time period for example.