Fusil de Chasse, at last!!!

[PathfinderNC]

“I am wondering if there is a way to move the swipe stick closer to the barrel. Wood removal, of course.”
Yes, I have done this with some kit guns that have a very thick web ( the wood between the barrel channel and ramrod channel.) I use a rattail file that’s a bit narrower than the ramrod channel and start rasping away in the ramrod channel from the stock entry hole forward, removing more as I get closer to the front. This will do the trick in reducing the web nicely. There will be a slight bend to your ramrod later as it is fully inserted but not enough to stress your wooden ramrod.
(PS; looking at it from the side, a little more than half of your ramrod thickness will be visible when it is in place. This gives your gun an even more slim profile)

 

[pipascus]

“I am wondering if there is a way to move the swipe stick closer to the barrel. Wood removal, of course.”
Yes, I have done this with some kit guns that have a very thick web ( the wood between the barrel channel and ramrod channel.) I use a rattail file that’s a bit narrower than the ramrod channel and start rasping away in the ramrod channel from the stock entry hole forward, removing more as I get closer to the front. This will do the trick in reducing the web nicely. There will be a slight bend to your ramrod later as it is fully inserted but not enough to stress your wooden ramrod.

Wow! That's great to hear! Thank you!
Looks like I need to remove about a 1/4" of wood!
I'm looking for pictures of good reproductions and originals. Figure I can print them out and do comparisons.

 

[tenngun]

Not sure what you mean by "thing".
It's not at the level of a top piece, but I have read they shoot well and believe it can be improved with some wood work.

You’ll be proud of that gun, just like it is. To improve you just need to thin everything down. About 1/16
Thin the forestock down to about 1/16 to 1/8 wider then the barrel
The large ends at the end of the lock and side plate should be heart shaped and about 1/2 that size.
You won’t get a perfect FDC from an Indian gun, however with a little TLC your gun will be so close as 99% of living history guys won’t be able yo tell you what’s wrong with it
You gun will give you years of happiness and your grandson years of happiness if taken care of. It will shoot as well as any gun costing three times as much
Just some snobs get a stick up their one end about Indian guns. I know I used to be a such a snob. Then I got one and my disrespect for them threw out the window

 

[Billy-by-gosh]

Yes it is. Why?

Just wondering where they're located. You gave a good endorsement for their service. Looks like a decent gun and should serve you well for the your stated purpose. Have fun and let us know how it turns out.

 

[pipascus]

You’ll be proud of that gun, just like it is. To improve you just need to thin everything down. About 1/16
Thin the forestock down to about 1/16 to 1/8 wider then the barrel
The large ends at the end of the lock and side plate should be heart shaped and about 1/2 that size.
You won’t get a perfect FDC from an Indian gun, however with a little TLC your gun will be so close as 99% of living history guys won’t be able yo tell you what’s wrong with it
You gun will give you years of happiness and your grandson years of happiness if taken care of. It will shoot as well as any gun costing three times as much
Just some snobs get a stick up their one end about Indian guns. I know I used to be a such a snob. Then I got one and my disrespect for them threw out the windowView attachment 391128

Thank you. I appreciate that!
That's a beautiful gun! I like the crucifix on the stock!
I want to personalize mine as well.
I'm going to study photos!

 

[pipascus]

Just wondering where they're located. You gave a good endorsement for their service. Looks like a decent gun and should serve you well for the your stated purpose. Have fun and let us know how it turns out.

Yeah they were good. They were a bit backed up and were honest about it-contacted me as soon as they had one ready. Marty was quick to get back with me.
I will post pictures once I start working on it. I have to see what tools I need.

 

[Maximillian]

But remember that we all started somewhere before we became so knowledgeable.
I am excited when someone like the OP steps forward and asks our community for advise as he begins on anew and exciting journey in Muzzleloading (especially flintlocks!)
It’s a big tent and there is room for the well advanced as well as the budding novice.
We all do what we can with the things we have.

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

 

[Brokennock]

I understand what you are saying about the so called "negative Nancy," comments. But someone had to tell you that this isn't a matter of just not being "top end," and that no matter what you do or how well you do it, this is not going to be a reasonable replica of a Fusil des Chase. Does that mean it can't be a fantasy piece with a backstory of disparate parts being restocked in the colonies? No, this could certainly be your story.

I agree with what was said about not doing any of the work you mention until you make sure the gun functions as desired. Do not waste your efforts on this if it does not function properly. Then, look at as many pictures as you possibly can of original guns and decide from there where to make changes, if at all.

Here's my snarky comment for you, "a Spaniard living near the Canadian border during the F&I," ???? Huh?

 

[FlinterNick]

Howdy!
I just got my fusil de chasse from The Muzzleloader Shop.
Originally contacted Loyalist Arms but Linda Higgins, of the same company, referred me to The Muzzleloader Shop, as they are behind schedule.

The Muzzleloader Shop was great to deal with. Marty was the person I dealt with and he was really helpful.
A few photos attached.

Would appreciate some advice to see if I am correct and as to how to proceed.
I ordered some 600 balls and will try it out some time next week hopefully.

I am thinking it could use some wood removal (photos attached). I don't mind this at all, and it will give me an opportunity to personalize this fusil a bit.
The "flats" on the barrel, before the wedding ring, don't seem as flat as what I see in photos. Would filing these down a bit, in the exposed area, be OK?
Also thinking if there's a way to add a serpent sideplate, maybe some beaded decoration?

So far, my persona is leaning towards a Spaniard or French man living with one of the tribes up around Canada during the French and Indian War or just before. Maybe the Abenaki or something. Prefer Spanish as that is my ancestry, and I will NOT eat escargot!!! Plus I speak fluent Spanish and failed French in high school.

So anyway, any advice on the wood removal and other improvements would be appreciated.

I would leave it as is, I wouldn’t sink too much money into these Indian made guns. It just doesn’t reap any reward or gain in the future. If you wanna learn how to build guns build a gun buy a kit and build it go to a class most people on this forum that learn how to build guns did so by observing others. Personally, I would’ve started with a Kibbler kit.

How many originals have you seen?
How much research have you done?

Once you’ve done your research, you’ll have a hard time, convincing others, and yourself that this is what it is intended to be.

 

[FlinterNick]

Thank you.
I know it isn't a very accurate reproduction, but I hope I can at least make it look pretty good, as long as it shoots well.

I would leave it as is. Reshaping teak stocks can have a lot of unintended consequences. These Indian guns are oversized for a reason. It’s because the wood is low-grade. It’s very brittle and with a closed grain. Well a lot of people on this forum will “quote teak for being exceptionally hard it’s also exceptionally brittle. It doesn’t have a good balance of hardness and toughness. Not like a walnut or a maple. Again, I would just leave it like it is.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Will it ever pass as an authentic fusil de chasse on close inspection? I guess not. But it can at least make an acceptable gun that looks nice.

Some here, while being honest in appraisal, can appear that the comments are also quite 'brutal'. You're actually quite lucky that Mike Brooks is not around here to comment on it - yikes! My thoughts ...

WOOD - Way, waaaaaayy too much all over, a real FdC, especially if from Tulle, should be trim, trim, trim and be light! Definitely work the lock panels, but before you do, also read up on the sideplate and lock.

LOCK - File the lockplate flat (if you can), add facets to the pan, and then re-shape the wood surround to fit. Those panels are way too proud and large and reshape the elongated teardrop final on the rearmost end.

SIDE PLATE - The shallow 'S' shape is typical, where I believe a serpent would only be found on an English gun or a fancier filligree design one, in brass only, found on a Fusil Fin, which that is not and never can be, sorry.

BARREL - The tapered facets on the octagonal section should be at least 2-1/4" long to mate to that 1st wedding band. There should not be a 2nd wedding band, but alas there's nothing you can correct there.

UPPER FOREND - Remove wood (looking down from above) so that no more than 1/16"+ appears outside the barrel. Tapering best achieved by faceting, i.e., taking something 'square' then making it look octagonal for example, then adding more flats or facets between thise you also cut, to slim it down nicely in a controlled manner. Overall that forend should be sooooooo thin and light that you'd fear breaking it off .... if/when the barrel were not attached.

RAMROD GROOVE - I can't get a good look a the ramrod groove juncture, but sometimes cutting the groove tops to be shallower "shows more rod" and makes the forend appear to be slimmer.

LOWER FOREND - Key 'ask' here is, is the breech or octagonal section of the barrel tapered? If not, you can still slim the wood, but go sloooooowly, as it will be more diffiult to make that gradual transition to the slim upper forend, because you do not have a taper onthe breech section to follow.

You might at least be able to make it more representative of a French trade gun from the St. Entienne armory that was given to the Indians, but you won't be able to mimic a true Fusil de Chasse say from the Tulle factory.

Bottom line, go have fun with it and git her shootin'! Whenever I have someone question the architecture, authenticity or feature of one of my BP replicas ... I find that putting a roundball into the X-ring or bullseye 'offhand' from 25-yards, or longer distance, pretty much shuts them up ... LOL!

 

[Leatherbark]

If I squint my eyes, I can make some women look like Jennifer Aniston. 99% of the people you meet at the range wouldn't know a correct FDC from a Bess anyway. So, fix it to your liking and use the recommendations posted here and learn to shoot it and be satisfied with it. Some shooter at the range will look over and squint his eyes and say, "Huh that looks like a French Fusil".

 

[Banjoman]

So, my Traditions and Jukar “Kentucky “ rifles sorta, kinda look like original Kentucky rifles which were probably made in Pennsylvania, not Kentucky.

My Thompson Center “Hawken” rifle sorta, kinda looks like a real Hawken from a distance if you don’t pay close attention to the sights, trigger guard, stock shape and patch box.

My India made Fusil de Chasse which was refinished by a gunsmith sorta, kinda looks like an original if you don’t look too close at the wood type, barrel and hardware.

Does that stop me from shooting and enjoying them? Nope.

 

[pipascus]

I understand what you are saying about the so called "negative Nancy," comments. But someone had to tell you that this isn't a matter of just not being "top end," and that no matter what you do or how well you do it, this is not going to be a reasonable replica of a Fusil des Chase. Does that mean it can't be a fantasy piece with a backstory of disparate parts being restocked in the colonies? No, this could certainly be your story.

I agree with what was said about not doing any of the work you mention until you make sure the gun functions as desired. Do not waste your efforts on this if it does not function properly. Then, look at as many pictures as you possibly can of original guns and decide from there where to make changes, if at all.

Here's my snarky comment for you, "a Spaniard living near the Canadian border during the F&I," ???? Huh?

I definitely appreciate the truth and the facts. But these can be presented in a way that is helpful instead of condescending. While looking for other posts about Indian guns, I found this same person with the same snarky comments-always a negative, know-it-all attitude. That person has a good deal of knowledge, obviously, and could easily present the truth in a manner that educates and helps the recipient make improvements. Example: "That gun will need a lot of work to resemble a fusil de chasse, and will never pass as one upon close inspection. If it shoots well, you can make it look much better and be a good "beater gun", but it's going to take a lot of work".
I can deal with that.
Hopefully that individual will realize the silliness of his attitude and decide to use his extensive knowledge to help me and others. I would be grateful if he presented pictures and told me "look at this vs that", "do this here and that there", etc.

For sure I will wait until I fire the gun to do any changes whatsoever.

As far as your remark "a Spaniard living near the Canadian border during the F&I," ???? Huh?"

LOL!

No problem. Your remark was not snarky.

Spain was at odds with England and, if I remember correctly, allied with France during the French and Indian War. I was just thinking, what if a Spaniard managed to have been there, perhaps aiding a mission, just before the war, and then staid there, allied with the French? Or maybe a half Spanish half French?
You all know this better than I, and I would really like to explore this-but likely better in another topic, though I know not which one. I see one in the forums about personas, but it says it's for already developed ones. Please feel free to tell me where to post for this. I did so before I think. Will have to search. Just very stressful lright now and I forget stuff with all the endless issues going on at the moment.

 

[brewyak]

Howdy!
I just got my fusil de chasse from The Muzzleloader Shop.
Originally contacted Loyalist Arms but Linda Higgins, of the same company, referred me to The Muzzleloader Shop, as they are behind schedule.

The Muzzleloader Shop was great to deal with. Marty was the person I dealt with and he was really helpful.
A few photos attached.

Would appreciate some advice to see if I am correct and as to how to proceed.
I ordered some 600 balls and will try it out some time next week hopefully.

I am thinking it could use some wood removal (photos attached). I don't mind this at all, and it will give me an opportunity to personalize this fusil a bit.
The "flats" on the barrel, before the wedding ring, don't seem as flat as what I see in photos. Would filing these down a bit, in the exposed area, be OK?
Also thinking if there's a way to add a serpent sideplate, maybe some beaded decoration?

So far, my persona is leaning towards a Spaniard or French man living with one of the tribes up around Canada during the French and Indian War or just before. Maybe the Abenaki or something. Prefer Spanish as that is my ancestry, and I will NOT eat escargot!!! Plus I speak fluent Spanish and failed French in high school.

So anyway, any advice on the wood removal and other improvements would be appreciated.

Check out “I love muzzeloading” on YouTube. Ethan has a really good video about trade guns. You will learn a lot

 

[pipascus]

Some here, while being honest in appraisal, can appear that the comments are also quite 'brutal'. You're actually quite lucky that Mike Brooks is not around here to comment on it - yikes! My thoughts ...

WOOD - Way, waaaaaayy too much all over, a real FdC, especially if from Tulle, should be trim, trim, trim and be light! Definitely work the lock panels, but before you do, also read up on the sideplate and lock.

LOCK - File the lockplate flat (if you can), add facets to the pan, and then re-shape the wood surround to fit. Those panels are way too proud and large and reshape the elongated teardrop final on the rearmost end.

SIDE PLATE - The shallow 'S' shape is typical, where I believe a serpent would only be found on an English gun or a fancier filligree design one, in brass only, found on a Fusil Fin, which that is not and never can be, sorry.

BARREL - The tapered facets on the octagonal section should be at least 2-1/4" long to mate to that 1st wedding band. There should not be a 2nd wedding band, but alas there's nothing you can correct there.

UPPER FOREND - Remove wood (looking down from above) so that no more than 1/16"+ appears outside the barrel. Tapering best achieved by faceting, i.e., taking something 'square' then making it look octagonal for example, then adding more flats or facets between thise you also cut, to slim it down nicely in a controlled manner. Overall that forend should be sooooooo thin and light that you'd fear breaking it off .... if/when the barrel were not attached.

RAMROD GROOVE - I can't get a good look a the ramrod groove juncture, but sometimes cutting the groove tops to be shallower "shows more rod" and makes the forend appear to be slimmer.

LOWER FOREND - Key 'ask' here is, is the breech or octagonal section of the barrel tapered? If not, you can still slim the wood, but go sloooooowly, as it will be more diffiult to make that gradual transition to the slim upper forend, because you do not have a taper onthe breech section to follow.

You might at least be able to make it more representative of a French trade gun from the St. Entienne armory that was given to the Indians, but you won't be able to mimic a true Fusil de Chasse say from the Tulle factory.

Bottom line, go have fun with it and git her shootin'! Whenever I have someone question the architecture, authenticity or feature of one of my BP replicas ... I find that putting a roundball into the X-ring or bullseye 'offhand' from 25-yards, or longer distance, pretty much shuts them up ... LOL!

Thank you for the detailed suggestions-they are quite helpful and I totally understand what you mean.
I will look at photos to use as guidance for changes.
What tools would you recommend? I imagine files and maybe some rasps? A draw knife of some kind? Sand paper, of course...

I would leave it as is, I wouldn’t sink too much money into these Indian made guns. It just doesn’t reap any reward or gain in the future. If you wanna learn how to build guns build a gun buy a kit and build it go to a class most people on this forum that learn how to build guns did so by observing others. Personally, I would’ve started with a Kibbler kit.

How many originals have you seen?
How much research have you done?

Once you’ve done your research, you’ll have a hard time, convincing others, and yourself that this is what it is intended to be.

I would leave it as is. Reshaping teak stocks can have a lot of unintended consequences. These Indian guns are oversized for a reason. It’s because the wood is low-grade. It’s very brittle and with a closed grain. Well a lot of people on this forum will “quote teak for being exceptionally hard it’s also exceptionally brittle. It doesn’t have a good balance of hardness and toughness. Not like a walnut or a maple. Again, I would just leave it like it is.

I will definitely have to take down some of the wood. It just feels too chunky to me. I hope the teak holds out.
While it may never pass as a true fusil de chasse, I hope it will at least pass as a decent looking gun.
Someone sent me a photo of theirs, reworked, and it looked very good.

As far as originals, the ones I saw (not a fusil from what I recall) were at Jim Chambers' home when I picked up my Mark Silver kit. I got to pick up a few original rifles and muskets and clearly remember how elegant and light they were.
I still plan to finish that kit, when I have a place to like in again.


This "fusil" is a project gun for me. I think I can make it look better and serve as a stop gap and later maybe a loaner, a backup, whatever.

Looking at the front sight, I thing some careful filework may give it a better shape. What do you think?

 

[pipascus]

I spoke with Marty and he said the stock is made of Rosewood.
I suppose it would be Indian Rosewood.

Looking it up, I found:

• "While Indian Rosewood is known for its strength and durability, it's not considered brittle; rather, it's a dense, hard, and heavy wood, making it challenging to work with but also highly resistant to wear and tear"
• "Indian Rosewood is prized for its strength, durability, and resistance to wear, impact, moisture, and insect damage. Its high density and hardness contribute to its longevity and make it a suitable material for furniture, musical instruments, and other applications."
• "Due to its hardness, Indian Rosewood can be difficult to work with, requiring sharp tools and careful handling to avoid dulling edges or fracturing the wood."
• "Indian Rosewood is used for furniture, musical instruments (guitar backs, sides, fingerboards, bridges), decorative carvings, flooring, cabinetry, turnings, and knife handles"
• "Indian rosewood is generally considered a good wood for carving, especially for intricate details and fine finishes, due to its hardness, durability, and attractive grain"

Also, seems like the rosewood will need more care than teak, since it lacks the oils.

I am concerned about the durability of the stock once trimmed down, but I have seen images of others who have done the same and it held up fine.
I guess I will find out!
Of course, I will make sure it shoots well first.

 

[pipascus]

Check out “I love muzzeloading” on YouTube. Ethan has a really good video about trade guns. You will learn a lot

Thanks! I actually listen to his podcast sometimes. I looked up your suggestion and will give a good listen. Thanks.

 

[Zwreed]

Hey man if it shoots I’d be proud to own it. I’ve been shopping around for an affordable, fun shooting smoothbore myself.

 

[cebusey]

I spoke with Marty and he said the stock is made of Rosewood.
I suppose it would be Indian Rosewood.

Looking it up, I found:

• "While Indian Rosewood is known for its strength and durability, it's not considered brittle; rather, it's a dense, hard, and heavy wood, making it challenging to work with but also highly resistant to wear and tear"
• "Indian Rosewood is prized for its strength, durability, and resistance to wear, impact, moisture, and insect damage. Its high density and hardness contribute to its longevity and make it a suitable material for furniture, musical instruments, and other applications."
• "Due to its hardness, Indian Rosewood can be difficult to work with, requiring sharp tools and careful handling to avoid dulling edges or fracturing the wood."
• "Indian Rosewood is used for furniture, musical instruments (guitar backs, sides, fingerboards, bridges), decorative carvings, flooring, cabinetry, turnings, and knife handles"
• "Indian rosewood is generally considered a good wood for carving, especially for intricate details and fine finishes, due to its hardness, durability, and attractive grain"

Also, seems like the rosewood will need more care than teak, since it lacks the oils.

I am concerned about the durability of the stock once trimmed down, but I have seen images of others who have done the same and it held up fine.
I guess I will find out!
Of course, I will make sure it shoots well first.

Just a thought - Manton of London fame moved his business to Calcutta India around 1820 to 1825 and began building firearms there. I kind of doubt that he imported English or European walnut for his general builds - likely arms for the East India company or other colonial users. I am sure that some experts will take exception to my suspicions on the wood he used.