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paulvallandigham said:
Its a question of style, and personal preference. Both guns can be well made, and great shooters. Some prefer the French style, while others prefer the balance and style of the American fowlers.

Personally, I believe those who want the French style ( fusil) are more tuned into military re-enactments( Purists) that put actual replication ahead of performance, or balance. Rarely are Fusil owners willing to remove wood or cut the barrel length to get better balance.

The American Fowler took elements from the French, English, German, Dutch, and added elements unique to the American experience to make a slightly different fowler. It may not be a better gun than the French fusil, but many prefer it.


I beg to disagree. I have a fusil de chase with a 46 inch swamped Getz barrel, it is light weight, a natural pointer and a joy to hunt with. I have never had a gun that mounts so nice to the shoulder and gets on target more quickly, almost as though it has a life all it's own.
 
I think French "trade fusils" are WAAAY overdone in American reenacting. France was the enemy. As far as I know, the American colonies were not allowed to trade with them (?), Mother England being our primary provider, followed by various allied German states and the Dutch. Sure, some French guns would filter in, primarily near Canada, of course, but I don't think you could just walk into your local gunshop and pick up a French gun like you could an English one.
 
I've had people tell me that they can't shoot the fusils because of the shape of the stock. To me mine seems natural as it comes to shoulder. I've always liked the lines of them also. Just my opinion.
 
I have a fowler very similar to the one Track sells. It is a lovely, light thing with great balance and is a good fowling piece and handles ball well. too. It weighs about seven pounds. The English gun should have a walnut or maybe cherry stock--maple isn't really right.

The "French" guns are way too thick in the forestock and the butt stock is all wrong too. The lock resembles nothing ever found on a French trade fusil and looks awkward as a result. A bit of research will show you that the French fusils were slim and light guns not pudgy and heavy. You might consider one of Mike Brook's "Carolina" guns. One of these would make a fine companion and offers historical accuracy as well.
 
Okay: Who made the gun??? And how does it compare to the replica fusils being sold on the market? I can only speak for what I see available to buyers, and not to those who want to build their own, and do a far better job of making the gun balance. Custom guns are always another matter.

I think you can see that from the comments of other members here. The gunmaker who made my fowler has been familiar with both fowlers and fusils for years, and if you are willing to pull it out of him, he is a wealth of knowledge about the guns. But he builds gun that are slim, balanced, and point beautifully. He makes no attempt to build a fusil like those being offered, unless that is exactly what the customer wants. And then, he tries to talk them out of their choice!
 
Russ T Frizzen said:
I have a fowler very similar to the one Track sells. It is a lovely, light thing with great balance and is a good fowling piece and handles ball well. too. It weighs about seven pounds. The English gun should have a walnut or maybe cherry stock--maple isn't really right.

The "French" guns are way too thick in the forestock and the butt stock is all wrong too. The lock resembles nothing ever found on a French trade fusil and looks awkward as a result. A bit of research will show you that the French fusils were slim and light guns not pudgy and heavy. You might consider one of Mike Brook's "Carolina" guns. One of these would make a fine companion and offers historical accuracy as well.

Russ you are entirely correct here but allow me to add a few thoughts.

In the 17th and part of the 18th century the French used the term "Fusil"[pronounced Fuzee} to denote any flintlock longarm as opposed to "Mousquet" for matchlocks.This term eventually fell into disfavor being displaced by the term Musket, but the English adopted it to denote light weight or scaled down muskets.The term evolved into another term for English Fowling pieces and the later Fowlers.It is easier to define these guns so I will use the terms musket and guns except for the Fusils de chasse and when historically necessary.

18th century French guns prior to 1761 used in America can be divided into two basic groups;guns manufactured by Tulle under contract to the King through his Ministry de la Marine and trade guns {"Fusils de trait"}.The Tulle guns were manufactured from 1691 to 1741 and are classified by contract dates. These guns were further divided into the marine military muskets,{common and grenadier muskets} hunting muskets{the famous Fusils de chasse}and buccaneer muskets issued for a variety of uses.
Fusils de chasse were not PER SE trade guns although many were given to Indians.They were slim, graceful,lightweight yet sturdy guns which were highly prized by whites, Indians,and British alike In addition Fusils de chasse were made by other manufacturers such as St. Etienne and various private makers.The are easily identified by their roman nose comb called pied de vache.They were predominately iron mounted although some fancier Tulle guns were gift or presentation guns to selected Indian chiefs and are referred as Fusils fin{fine guns}de chasse.

Tulle military guns issued to the Companies Franche {incorrectly referred to by some reenactors as "French marines"}. They generally fall into two arms,the common musket and the grenadier musket They are basically identical except that grenadier has a middle barrel band and sling swivels and there is a slight difference in barrel length.

Fusils de trait began to make their appearance in the late 17th century and were made by a variety of makers including St.Etienne and the shops in Liege.Some were iron mounted and many so mounted were made by St. Etienne.The majority were brass mounted and had straight combs and slim graceful architecture rather than the pied de vache style.Hamilton believed that there two types based on differences in the mounts and called them Types C and D. I do not quarrel with him here but almost no one makes a "Type C or D with what I associate with correct architecture of the early 18th century. See Torsten Lenk, Plates 86-88,90,91 The problem is that the Type C and D kits and precarves today seem to be based soley on archaeologically recovered materials rather than complete guns.R E Davis offers two kits, the Type D and the fine fusil kit These are very similar but the flat faced Jaeger styled lock in the D kit is ,in my opinion incorrect.The only kit that I can recommend is the fine fusil kit although without the Jaeger style lock the D kit would probably be OK.

The French guns led the way in the 18th century and their influence is seen in New England fowlers and Kentucky rifles especially from Bucks County and the Lehigh Valley.
I'm sorry for the length but when I get going it's hard to stop.
As always I welcome reponsible opposing comment.
Tom Patton
Heaven is a Tulle Fusil de chasse.


:thumbsup: :v :bow:
 
Thanks, Tom. It's true about the French influence in American guns and particularly so with the New England fowlers to their benefit.


And the fusil de chasse is a fine example of a firearm designed for its purpose. Light and finely balanced, it is a fine companion to carry afield in search of game. Or to use as one's longarm on a raid far afield if need be.
 
Good stuff as usual Tom, :thumbsup: I'll pontificate when I have time this evening on the subject......gotta run now!
 
Mike Brooks said:
Good stuff as usual Tom, :thumbsup: I'll pontificate when I have time this evening on the subject......gotta run now!

Not to mention ruminating and cogitating
:grin: :bow: :v
 
Swampy said:
A French influenced New England Fowler is something to behold. :thumbsup:
no doubt,
Growing up in old New England on the Quebec border afforded me many chances of seeing some really cool french influnced firearms. Very beautful!
 
". Rarely are Fusil owners willing to remove wood or cut the barrel length to get better balance"

If built properly there is no reason to chop of the end of a gun to get it to balance, the Fusil De Chase from Tulle parts sets TOW sells can be made into a rather well balamnced gun if one takes the wood off as needed when working on the project, the Pied de vache stock can be worked on to "fit" as needed as well,mine balances rather well and is quite accurate,it is just under 8 lbs( some originals in Neumans books are only a bit lighter than this) had I went with a .62 bore it would have been even better, there is no reason why most any of the parts sets cannot have the extra wood removed when putting everything together, I don't know that I would buy a gun with that stock style allready finished, it is best to work the buttstock/comb as you go IMHO, when I bring mine up to the shoulder with cheek on stock and open my eyes the front sight shows with only a small section of the oct barrel is in the sight picture and this puts the ballwhere the top of the sight is at 50 yds,maybe that is not the way others do it but it works for me.
I think Tanstaafl finds these guns to be satifactory as well it appears.
 
paulvallandigham said:
Okay: Who made the gun??? And how does it compare to the replica fusils being sold on the market? I can only speak for what I see available to buyers, and not to those who want to build their own, and do a far better job of making the gun balance. Custom guns are always another matter.

I think you can see that from the comments of other members here. The gunmaker who made my fowler has been familiar with both fowlers and fusils for years, and if you are willing to pull it out of him, he is a wealth of knowledge about the guns. But he builds gun that are slim, balanced, and point beautifully. He makes no attempt to build a fusil like those being offered, unless that is exactly what the customer wants. And then, he tries to talk them out of their choice!

Who made the gun?

Me, and I am the user of it.

P1010034.JPG
 
Then, WADR, you are comparing a custom made fusil to the stuff that is being sold commercially. Only the current Fusil "FIN" guns seem to have the balance and light weight I have seen on custom made guns. The fusil traits, and other "tulle fusils " I examined, when they first came on the scene, were not an example of grace.

From what I can see of your gun from the pictures, its looks terrific. I would want that gun, too.

Best wishes. Paul
 
Well now one could argue with some merit that the "classical" lines of an American Longrifle are borrowed from the French Fusil du Chasse. Especially as we get into the Golden age arms and away from the "transitional" styles. They do tend to wander from the British or German lines in many cases
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(w...Id=14&subId=153&styleId=640&partNum=STK-CHASE
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(w.../partList.aspx?catID=14&subID=153&styleID=637

But that is why ice cream has flavors, we all get to pick our favorites.

Bryan K. Brown www.gunsmithy.com www.jaegerkorps.org
[email protected]
[email protected]

Alle künst ist umsunst wenn ein Engle auf dem Zundlocke brünst.
 
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The profile of the guns is often swhat most lok at when at first studying the longrifle comapered to the Grman.English and French guns, Spanish,Dutch also have contributed in some circumstances, but there is a lot more to look at that carries more weight like the style of carving in a region, the type of furniture, and other little quirks that when put together seperate a Lancaster from one of the other Penn. schools some of the schools did not fully develope untill we were deep into the Golden age,the smoothbores of most European guns was a fairly long gun, one could argue the the development of the American longrifle was a result
of adding rifleing and the things that go with the rifle concept, rear sights, grip rail and cheekpiece to the fowler styles of the time rather than just making the barrels of exsisting guns longer.the earliest gun that most feel is pretty much an American rilfe is dated 1761 some Ameriacn rifles are thought to go back to 1740 but we are not sure. I think it would be safe to say the American longrifle was around at least by 1750, and what some call transitional are just early American longrifles, these having been influenced by the European guns depending on where and who in the colonies was responsibe for the particular style, there are regional trends that the guns took dependant on where the makers of the area hailed from.
 
Good post,TG You are right the Schreit rifle is dated 1761 but there are doubtless some earlier guns.I can think of at least two that I believe could date into the 1750's and there are several which date into the 1760's.The problem is that these very early guns are almost always unsigned and therefore cannot be compared to a signed gun making identification extremely difficult.the years prior to the Revolutionary War saw styles of decoration and architecture constantly changing. The identification of rifles by schools would not come about until Joe Kindig Jr.'s monumental "Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in its Golden age"was published in 1960.He showed some early guns but it wasn't until 1980 when George Shumway brought out "Rifles of Colonial America" with it's many early rifles and multiple images, that the early rifles began to come into their own.It is with some of these early rifles that we see the French influence on early Pennsylvania rifles especially those from Bucks County,the Lehigh Valley and to some degree those rifles made in Reading.It should be noted too that French Hugenots fleeing France after the revocation of the Edict of Nantes in 1685 were showing up in America in the early 18th century.The Hugenot Ferree family of Lancaster County produced a number of gunsmiths beginning in the early 18th century.
Tom Patton
 
I would like to see the complete works of the Ferree family over the years to see how they started out and what they ended up with style wise, I think there are several guns in RCA of Southern flavor that the author believes could go back to the 1740-50 period, the traits of these guns even though dated on speculation would be good sources for a pattern to build an early gun, and they and most others thought to be early are very much more than a stretched out German Jaeger, in time I hope this over simplification of gun evolution from grade school history books will fade away.
 

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