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Gain twist rifling

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Mountainman56

50 Cal.
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Howdy.

I am going to be building another rifle this winter and I'm wondering if anyone out there has any experience with the Colerain gain twist rifling.

I'm going to build a percussion .50cal 38" swamped barrel. The rifle is not going to be a copy of any one gunsmith but rather a blend of the features that I like. (Isaac Haines, late Tennessee and me. Hope it ain't to ugly to post a picture when I get finished.)

Have fun and be safe.

Brian
 
Greetings Mountianman56, I didn't know Colerain made gain twist barrels, the only barrel maker I know that cuts gain twist is Bob Hoyt, that's good to know. The gain twist barrel has always intrigued me, and I don't have any experience with them, but did some research on them because I use to shoot Slug, and a great number of old slug rifles used gain twist. The old master barrel-smith himself, Mr. Harry Pope wouldn't use anything but gain twist.. I did have the opportunity to speak with barrel builder Mr.James Goodoien regarding the gain twist, and it made for some very interesting conversation! I enjoy building rifles as much as shooting them, and can relate to the way you build rifles. I try to follow a school, or style, but still change things till I'm satisfied. Please keep us posted on your build, and good luck.. Mgcrumster
 
Thanks for the input Mgcrumster. I ordered the barrel today (real nice folks at Colerain). Scott said it was unlikely I would receive it before next year. Going to order some lumber when my sweet bride ain't looking then start gatherin up the rest of the pieces. I will keep you updated once I get everything all in one pile.

Brian
 
Some people are sold on gain twist but I'm not one of them. Think of it this way, the bullet is starting from a still position and increases speed the length of the barrel and at the same time is increasing revolutions. To try to increase the rate of revs faster than the bullet is picking up speed seems a little hard on the bullet in my mind, better to put a gain twist barrel on backwards.
With all the great ideas in the shooting sport, some work and some don't, but a lot of it has to do with what is going on in a persons mind. If a shooter thinks he has an advantage over the other shooters he will probably shoot better than if he thinks there are other shooters that are better than he. One of my favorite tricks was to offer the competition a cup of coffee or a soda loaded with caffeine just before a shoot. Works for me :grin:
 
John Taylor, Dern it John, Regarding the coffffeeee, you're giving away one of my best Shooten Match secrets.. :haha: Greetings to all, I've all ready had my COFFFFFEEEE!!!! :shocked2: Mgcrumster
 
I’m sure I’m looking at it all bass-ackwards but I thought slowly picking up the revolutions rather than going from 0 to 60 all at once may have some advantages. The reason I wanted to go this route is because I wanted a fairly fast twist. Just for the sake of argument if you have a rifle that shoots say 2000 fps (mine averages about 1700 but 2000 is easier calculating for my poor old brain) starting at say a 1:24 twist, it is spinning at 60,000 rpm. If it starts at 1:60 and gradually tightens up it is starting at 24.000 rpm and the spin is accelerating gradually to 60,000. I realize maximum velocity doesn’t start at the breech but you see where I’m going. Seems to me that would cause less stress on everything.

Or I may wind up with a funny shaped 38” crowbar.

On the other hand I do know how to brew up a wicked cup of high test coffee”¦”¦”¦been drinkin it all morning and right now I doubt I could hit a barn from the inside!
 
Think of it this way, the bullet is already picking up revolutions from a standing start and increasing as it picks up feet per second. Gain twist tries to increase the rpms faster than the fps is increasing. If you want a fast twist barrel then the rifling should start with a fast twist. This is just my own opinion, if a gain twist makes someone a better shooter I'm not going to argue the point.
I'm happy that I don't like coffee or soda, but dark chocolate can mess me up.
 
I think the idea of having a slower twist at the breech is based on the fact that during firing the breech pressures are highest while the bullet/ball is very close to the breech. This accelerates the bullet/ball at a much higher rate in this zone than at some distance further down the barrel where the pressures are lower.

As this high linear rate of acceleration is at the breech it was (is) thought that adding a high rotational acceleration at the same time could overcome the grip of the projectile on the rifling.

Further down the barrel when the rate of linear acceleration has dropped due to the lower pressures in the region it was (is) thought to be a good zone to increase the rate of rotational spin of the bullet/ball by increasing the rate of the twist.

Although this concept was originally designed for use with lead bullets/balls, I believe there are several modern cannons that use gain twist in their barrels.
 
Thanks Zonie, your the first one that came up with anything that sounded good. The 20 MM volcan is supposed to have gain twist. I only have part of the barrel and it seems to be 1 in 25", can't tell if there is a gain twist. Colt used gain twist on their early guns but had the twist backwards :grin: .
 
Mr. Pope would have been a good shot with a smooth bore. He and the Stevens Co. had a falling out, Stevens wanted him to mass produce barrels and he wanted to spend a week on each one that had his name on it. He liked the 32-40 freshed out to 33-40 and loaded from the muzzle.
 
Mountainman 56:

there was a fella in my area that made gain twist barrels a long time ago, very early 1800's by the name of William Schrecongost . these rifle where supposedly know for their accuracy . I happen to know an ancestor who still has the wooden rifling device. its certainly not a new idea and was originally developed to shoot patched round balls .... just my to cents
 
Greetings, Rumor has it that James Mclemore :bow: may start building his Gain Twist barrels again, after a lay off of the last few years. James is a big fan of Harry Pope :bow: , and builds an accurate copy of Harry's fine barrels... Hope the rumor's are true.. :grin: Best wishes, Mgcrumster....
 
James McClemore broke Harry Pope's Code, which is marked on the bottom of his Gain Twist barrels. The code gave information to set up the rifling machine to duplicate the particular rate of Gain twist for that given caliber of rifle. An article about it appeared in Muzzle Blasts more than 25 years ago. Its nice to hear he still around, and may again make those barrels. Harry would surely be smiling down on him if he does.
 
There's something else pertaining to gain twist that hasn't been brought up yet. To me it can be said that gain twist had it's hay-day in the bullet era. With that in mind consider the fact that an elongated bullet wuold be tight in the rifling the full length of the barrel because the pitch was ever changing. Franklin Mann proved that the bullet expanded in the breech from the explosion. This fact would make this theory work with a muzzle loaded bullet. With uniform twist rifling & no choke the bullet would have a tendency to loosen as it slid up the barrel as lead isn't resilient.
 
Gain twist is one of those things which has been kicked around for two hundred years or more and no one has ever proved nor disproved any advantage. Harry Pope was indeed an advocate of gain twist but the real "secrete" to the accuracy of Pope barrels was the extreme care he put into every aspect of barrel making, nothing was ever good enough if it could possibly be better. Pope barrels were also choked in the boring process not lapped in later as most other makers did.
When I built my first rifle, about 1961, I got a Numrich Arms .45 caliber gain twist barrel from Dixie Gun Works. Numrich made straight or gain twist for the same price. They were not threaded for breech plug and when I had a local machine shot thread it they tapped the wrong end and I didn't even notice. Years later I did notice the "G" stamped on one flat and realized it was backward. I removed the rib and sights, filled the dovetails, cut off the breech and breeched the correct end. Guess what, it didn't shoot a bit different, no better nor worse. :grin:
 
You fail to take into consideration that the pressure on the base of the bullet is driving the bullet faster and faster down the barrel, and that will cause a lead bullet to expand outward to fill in any area where lead might be lost to the side of the bore of the barrel. The problem with changing the pitch of the grooves is that it DOES allow gas to blow by and the groove to be widened, to reflect the change in pitch.

A choked bore is a much better way to improve accuracy using either patched lead balls or conicals, bare, paper patched, or otherwise. This keeps adding friction to the ball or bullet as it moves towards the muzzle, insuring that the pressure expansion behind the projectile remains constant, or as nearly constant as the barrel and action allow.

If Gain Twist was really the best way to go, all the target guns- from the slug guns down-- would be using Gain Twist rifling. The Slug gun shooters, probably less than 200 of them nation-wide, are the Research and Development branch of Muzzle Loading rifle shooting. If it will improve accuracy, they use it. The information we use in the guns we take with us to hunt deer each fall is a fraction of the data these shooters use every time they go to the ranges. Look to them for your expertise, and advice.
 
I have a WWII vintage Italian "Carcano" rifle that has gain twist rifling. I have no idea what benefit this gives but there must have been some kind of logic behind it or they would not have mass produced a battle rifle with this feature. Or maybe there was no benefit. Look how poorly they failed in WWII.

But regardless, maybe you can contact someone wo is an expert on vintage arms like the Carcano and they can shed some light on the benefits (or not) of gain twist rifling. I hope this may help you.
 
The reason for the gain twist in the Carcano rifle had nothing to do with accuracy. The clever boys in the Italian munitions plant were seeking to find a way to satisfy the Genevea Convention prohibition against exploding, or dum-dum, and hollow point expanding bullets, by making their bullets, while technically in compliance with the international convention, TUMBLE because they were over stabilized by the faster rate of twist as the bullet left the muzzle. This allowed them to have a flat trajectory , but when the bullet struck flesh, it would tend to tumble, cause the same massive wounds, that the Geneva Convention was trying to prevent by banning hollow points and other expanding bullets. The cartridge was adopted back in 1891. In 1936, when the Italian Army began its expansion, and needed more rifles, the old guns in poor shape were rebarreled with straight rifled barrels, and the new, shorter Carbines were also barreled with the stright rifled barrels. No one knows what rifling is in the rifle used to shoot President Kennedy in 1963, and the Smithsonial will not allow anyone to make that kind of inspection. ( They have been asked.) If Oswald's carcano does have the old rifling, it would explain why the last shot began spinning sideways like a whirllygig, blowling a large whole out the side of the President's head before itselt exploding.

We think we are sure that he was using Winchester made ammo in the gun, based on all the evidence. These bullets had a solid core of lead, and copper gilt metal as a jacket. The original Italian ammo, sold here as military surplus, was a steel jacket, with only a small core of lead at the back third of the bullet. The front third was solid steel.

In the Kennedy case, the first shot fired missed the President, and broke up on the concrete curb beyond the limosine. Two spectators receive minor wounds from being hit by bits of that bullet. The curbing is now in the Smithsonian. The second shot struck the President in the back in his shoulder, and is the now Infamous " Magic " bullet, a creation of the media and other ignorant writers, who have never taken the time to actually look at the bullet. The bullet is not pristine, and shows a small dent in the nose of the bullet, and a bend about half way down and flattening toward the base on one side. Part of the lead core is extruding out the base of the bullet, and appears to be the result of the flattening on that one side. The third bullet blew up as it exited the President's head, with two pieces of the lead core being found on the floorboard of the Limo under the driver's feet. One pice hit the inside of his windshield, cracking that insider layer of glass but not the outside layer of glass. The second piece hit a piece of chrome trim above the driver's head, over the sunvisor. One piece weighed about 22 grains, and the other weighs 44 grains.

Tests showed that the two pieces share the same metallurgy as the extruding core of the second bullet. (This is a class characteristic as far as Ballistic's Identification, which just tells us that that lead came from the same batch of metal, like thousands like it.)

The second bullet was ballistically matched to the Oswald gun, as was a bullet taken from the wall of a General Walker's library, after he suffered a sniping attack at his home earlier in the primary campaign. Oswald had confessed and bragged to his wife that he was responsible for that shooting,( Walker was an ultra right- wing conservative candidate supported by Neo- Nazis, and the KKK who ran him in early Democratic Primaries that year). Authorities found newspaper clippings, and other evidence connecting Oswald to that sniping after his death, during the investigation into the deaths of President Kennedy and the Dallas Police officer Oswald also shot.
 
Paul V

We're in agreement that if gain was some sort of magic bean it would be every where. ML & modern alike. There's no real magic to cutting gain, just pop a curved sine bar on your rifling machine and away you go.

You're loosing me as to how a bullet continues to expand as it progresses up the barrel. It would seem that the highest pressure on the base of the bullet would be at or near the breech. How is an increase in speed going to expand the bullet? It seems that the only thing that should expand the bullet is pressure from the powder. Yet many barrels are tapered because the presure is less further from the breech. Shotguns are the best example of this as no more that 8-10 inches from the breech many of them are quite thin.

Paul
 

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