Gain Twist?

[Carl Fowler III]

Has anyone ever heard of a gain twist in a muzzleloading barrel and does anyone on this site have one? What was the purpose of having a gain twist and what type of ball/bullet was used in these special barrels? :v

 

[galamb]

Never owned one but have an acquaintance who got one from Colerain so can speak (a little) to that particular barrel.

The twist starts out at 1:96 at the breech end and works it's way up to 1:48 at the muzzle.

The idea behind it is that it works better than a 1:48 twist when using both round balls and conicals.

Since the round ball only gets to 1:48 right at the last second it isn't over rotated with higher powder charges, but with the conical it's still stablized enough.

Anyhow, we horsed around with it and honestly can't say that I would pay the premium for the barrel.

It shot well enough but certainly no better than we were capable of shooting with other rifles.

(is a 50 cal and we shot .490/.495, some maxi-hunters and great plains bullets to see what it would do)

It's supposedly an old style of rifling.

I chalk it to something that was tried and might be somewhat historical but if it actually provided some kind of great advantage all barrels would have gain twist.

It appealed to people like my buddy who is always looking for "some edge".

I reserve myself to the fact that essentially a muzzle loader is a shorter range weapon and if you want to shoot PRB get a slow twist barrel. If you want to shoot conicals get a fast twist, shallow grove barrel.

If you want to shoot both, have two rifles.

But at least it's a good conversation piece when you get around other black powder shooters and most want to "have a try".

 

[hanshi]

I have one, an H&A underhammer, that came with a choice of standard or gain twist rifling. I chose gain twist. Though I've never done a side by side comparison with other barrels I can say that I've never fired a barrel that was more accurate than that one. The rifle is nearly 50 years old and the barrel is still pristine.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Most who have been at this game a while have heard of gain twists. They are but one of many rifling styles tried over the centuries. One theory behind them was that you could use heavier charges to start the ball spinning slowly without stripping patches but it would gain revs as it moved up the bore to a fast twist and thus (in theory) be more accurate. The concept is generally not accepted and there are few gainers around.

 

[rfisher]

Ned Roberts talks alot about gain twists in his book " The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle" He says they were made for use with a picket or sugarloaf bullet , not a round ball. Although he mentions that he had found some gain twist rifles that did fire round balls accurately.

 

[excess650]

A friend of mine has a Hoyt .60 with gain twist, and its a good shooter. Hoyt's elk rifle is also .60 with gain twist. They both shoot PRBs.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

This rifling type was also used in a modern, 20mm anti-tank gun (sorry forget the model) that was retired from the military after Korea. The idea then and with the modern cannon was to apply twist gradually as the round accelerated..., the 20th century application was with an elongated projectile that was trying to get high velocity so the information about gain twist being used for "sugarloaf" style bullets makes sense..., and it makes sense that there wasn't much advantage for the old round ball with this rifling.

LD

 

[galamb]

I still see gain twist as an option for those that belong the bunch that think you can get a "one barrel for every application" group or someone emulating an original that possibly had this style of twist.

The single barrel experience I had with gain twist was positive - it shot fine but so does alot of more economical options. I'm certainly not in any rush to order one.

Rice builds 1:95 and 1:104 Forsyth rifled 62 cal barrels as well as 54 cal with straight rifling. My opinion is, if offerings such as this were somehow "superior", all the barrel makers would be offering them as "standard" barrels.

Why? because enough "somebody's" want it making it viable to produce a few each year.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Rice builds 1:95 and 1:104 Forsyth rifled 62 cal barrels..., if offerings such as this were somehow "superior", all the barrel makers would be offering them as "standard" barrels.

:haha: Well not much demand for black powder round ball elephant/tiger/lion/rhino rifles these days, and a "proper" caliber according to Forsyth himself is a minimum of 14 bore, and he favored 8 and 4 bores most often...and those calibers are not prevalent in any rifled barrel style so not really an argument, eh? :haha:

LD

 

[galamb]

That's kinda the point I was getting at Dave.

There is still a few "someones" out there that want riling styles that have long faded from the "norm" because they either believe it will give some kind of edge or whatever.

The market is obviously large enough to warrant setting up the machine to crank them out.

But for me I will stick to the "typical" current offerings unless I build something that really calls out for something like we have been discussing here - and then it would only be for "correctness" to the original, not because I think I would be some "superior shooting weapon".

 

[ohio ramrod]

If my fading memory is right there was an article in muzzle blasts about ten to fifteen years ago that had the mathematical calculations on the forces required to grip a round ball at the different twists and the advantages gained by gain twist. The forces involved were far greater than the amount of force reduced by using gain twist. There fore they concluded that while there was some gain using gain twist, the gain was insignificant .There used to be a company in the seventies that made custom barrels in gain twist. I don't know if they are still in business but I believe their name was "gain twist barrel company". But this is all from memory and the old mind isn't what it used to be! :idunno: :idunno:

 

[AZbpBurner]

Apparently the gain twist concept is a solution in search for a problem that never caught on. You'd think that if it had any actual merit, everyone would be making them for premium accuracy barrels.

Closest I've seen to an ideal twist rifle barrel that works exceedingly well with both Minie and PRB is the 1:48" i have in both .50 and .54 cal.
Accuracy is impressive with both style projectiles in my .54.

 

[Wes/Tex]

A couple of the modern barrel did or are making them. The "shooters" model of the Remington New Army mentioned recently uses such a barrel and, to my knowledge, probably benefits from such a rifling set-up more than a rifle would unless you get into the larger calibers, say .58 or .60.

 

[George T.]

I bet that the number of barrel makers that were adept at them was a small number indeed. The extra time was sure to drive up the price so few went with them.

Geo. T.

 

[hanshi]

The only justification for GT barrels is that it is possible to rifle a barrel and have an ever-so-slight slow down near the muzzle. A slight gain twist eliminates this possibility without deleterious consequences.

 

[curator]

Original Colt cap & ball revolvers were rifled with gain twist. In theory that made them equally accurate with ball or conical bullet.

 

[M. De Land]

There is one more benefit derived from gain twist if shooting long range muzzle loaders with paper patched bullets.
Metford discovered that gain twist aids uniform patch expulsion at muzzle clearance better than will an even twist.
This probably happens for two reason. The increase helix angle twists the paper apart along with the groove width progression as the helix increases.
Most folks do not know that as a helix increases, from a single point cut rifling head, in a gain twist, the groove width also increases some what. Mike D.

 

[mooman76]

Of what I remember reading on it, it was tried and most companies didn't result in any benefit from it but there was at least one company that did have good success with it.

 

[M. De Land]

I see no practical advantage for round patched ball or grease bullet shooting.
It has a couple of negatives associated with it.
1.conventional hand lapping with lead slugs is impossible.
2.I've been told that most are slightly slower than conventional rifling.
3. Usually cost more. Mike D.

 

[Alden]

Yeah, I would never want gain twist, but progressive rifling is a great feature with benefits.