Gentlemen - a serious question...

[TFoley]

bearing in mind that I live, for the most part, in the UK, where there are NO rifle builders of traditional long rifles [I'm excepting Peter Dyson here, as he build replications of a Brown Bess, a Baker and another I'm not too sure about], what European maker builds the best and most authentic replication of an American flintlock long rifle?

Obviously the likes of Uberti and Davide Pedersoli spring to mind, and very nice they all look, too, but which of those two mankers builds an acceptable gun?

All advice will be much appreciated.

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I'm certainly not qualified to answer a post addressed to "gentlemen" but I'll give it a shot anyway. :haha:
I don't believe there is a really good representation of an American longrifle being produced, which is why the custom makers have a backlog of orders. With that said I believe the Pedersoli "frontier rifle" is about the closest and not too far wrong. My Blue Ridge flint .45, which is a cheaper version of the frontier rifle, has been accurate and reliable for the past 15 years and although the cost is now getting up near the cost of a custom rifle I would still recommend it.

 

I have a Pedersoli Brown Bess and a 1777 Charleville and have been very pleased with both. In my opinion, these are high quality flintlock muskets. I have not looked at the Uberti catalog lately, but they have a reputation for producing quality products. I have shot one of their Walker revolver for years with no issues other than a broken trigger/bolt spring. I use 75-80 grains of 2F black powder and 3F for the priming. Good luck.

 

[Rusty Spur 82]

Tac,
I can only speak of the Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawkens since that is the Pedersoli that I own,however,I am very pleased with workmanship of their product and if the Hawkens is a representation of their other rifles then I am sure you would be pleased, as I am.
Rusty

 

[ken.clements]

Try Armi sport, artax...

 

[jbwilliams3]

Tac,

In reality, there is no one who mass produces a good reproduction of the American longrifle. That said, if you’re only interested in a longrifle for the general experience and want something of good quality that shoots straight, the Pedersoli fits.

If you’re interested in a gun that fits in a particular place in the 18th or 19th century, the Pedersoli does not fit the bill. My first flintlock was the Frontier, and it was a good first experience especially since I got it cheap. They are way too expensive nowadays, in my opinion, to compete with some custom makers that are only moderately more expensive.

 

[TFoley]

Tac,

In reality, there is no one who mass produces a good reproduction of the American longrifle. That said, if you’re only interested in a longrifle for the general experience and want something of good quality that shoots straight, the Pedersoli fits.

If you’re interested in a gun that fits in a particular place in the 18th or 19th century, the Pedersoli does not fit the bill. My first flintlock was the Frontier, and it was a good first experience especially since I got it cheap. They are way too expensive nowadays, in my opinion, to compete with some custom makers that are only moderately more expensive.

JB and all - many thanks for your responses - all greatly valued and appreciated, I assure you. As you may have guessed, I would dearly love to have a gun in the Lancaster county style, but getting one made in the USA by one of your fine builders and THEN getting it over here is out of the question. Not from the time-scale POV, but from the truly appalling amount that it would cost me. A $2500 simple Lancaster-style custom gun - the bottom end of the scale from what I have seen here - would be doubled in price by the time it got to me from import levies, sales taxes and pure spite. My original Lancaster county long rifle, made by Peter Gonter, and with a similar era original silver-mounted powder horn were both stolen off our busy exhibition stand at a gun show back in 1998, and I've often thought I'd like to replace it with another real American-made gun.

Being realistic, though, a reasonable 'copy' was always going to be a cheaper option.

However, on reflection, I'd rather have something real that I CAN afford, than a modern replication of an 'average' long rifle. The Hawken style, I'm sorry to say, doesn't 'do it' for me.

The only way to satisfy my urge could well be to build one myself here in UK, and take the time and the financial 'hit' of getting licensed to shoot it - a matter of doing a LOT of 'through the hooping' in this beknighted country of gun-haters.

Thanks again to all.

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

 

[Shine]

You could always get on a ship and head west. Stop when you smell the freedom. I heard its been done before. :hatsoff: I have a good friend who is a retired British Sgt.Major. he married an Air force woman and moved here. The day he became a US citizen I gave him a brand new in the cosmoline,No. 4 Lee Enfield.From my personal stash. He teared up. 30 yrs in the british army and he could not even own it in his own county. Well he is welcome in mine. Sorry to get off topic.

 

[Vtsmoker]

tac
what about having the pieces sent to you a little at a time them finish and assemble them there. Order a stock, then a barrel, then a lock etc. or are the parts also regulated and would the import levys be heavy also. Just a thought.

 

[Danbo]

Let us see:

Anvil - check
hammer - check
hand saw - check
file and rasp - check
Drill - check
Forge - check
iron or steel - check
wood - check
brass - check

Don't let Cornwallis know what you're about...

 

[Zonie]

tac
I know you are occasionally in the U.S.

Is there some sort of problem with buying a nice custom made longrifle while your here and then mailing it back to your place in England?

Does doing that take special paperwork declaring what the package contains?

I know that England has a VAT (value added tax) but in this case you would not be adding to its value, you would simply be mailing home a nice "Curio" from the Colonies.

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

Could you order a Jim Chambers kit or would a flintlock kit count as a whole gun? I wish you luck on this project.

:thumbsup:

 

[Celt5494]

VTsmoker had a good take on what I was thinking of however I was thinking one more step. Instead of making it yourself how about contacting a quality maker here and having them assesmble the rifle then ship it over to you piecemeal? In the traditional American spirit of the moonshiner I'm sure one would be more than happy at the chance to get one over on a government and it's taxation. Heck the guy might just "undervalue" the "parts" for the customs invoices. Not sure about your laws on that one but it just might get you through without spending all your wages to the tax man.

 

[TFoley]

Dear All - a kind soul just PM'd me with an idea or two, for which I'm very grateful. And Zonie - the idea of sending one to myself doesn't work here - it is, after all, a live-firing firearm we are talking about, and has to be sent to licensed dealer here in yUK on importation and fully licensed and proofed before BEFORE I can actually lay a finger on it here in yUK.

The idea of getting a kit is just fine - the problem is that if I want to shoot it, then it has a load of problems just lined up ready to go -

1. A non-firing kit is OK - anybody can have one.

2. A live-firing kit - even though it is in component parts - is counted as much a live firearm as a Barrett .50cal rifle, and is subject to the same importation rules. IOW, it has to go from an FFL to the UK version of an FFL - the RFD [Registered Firearms Dealer].

3. I then have to have it proofed in the Birmingham Proof House, just in case my widow is given the chance to sell it.

4. The other problem is that I already have eighteen guns over here, and my local county limit - imposed by the then new Chief Constable, was set at sixteen. After that, you have to have a 24/7 FFL-standard monitored alarm and building security...

5. So I would have to sell three guns to get my next one.

Gee, now that makes real sense.

The only was I can do it is as some of you suggest - get a non-firing kit without the touch-hole drilled through, in the hope that the new CC is a mite more relaxed about things - after all there is no recorded crime in the last 150 years of anybody being shot with a flintlock rifle...

For sure there is no way on earth that I'm going to sell what I now have - having had to give up 118 handguns in 1997 - even whilst serving as a senior Army officer.

Thanks for all the advice and assistance, and a Merry Christmas and Happy & Prosperous New Year to you all.

tac, mrs tac and the family ig

 

[BillinOregon]

TAC: That's such a discouraging lot you are forced to put up with. My condolences. It is simply amazing that they don't differentiate between modern and antique arms.
Have a fine Christmas.

Bill, in cold and windy southern Oregon

 

[TFoley]

TAC: That's such a discouraging lot you are forced to put up with. My condolences. It is simply amazing that they don't differentiate between modern and antique arms.
Have a fine Christmas.

Bill, in cold and windy southern Oregon

Mornin', Bill - thanks for the post! If everything had gone right we'd be there sharing the wind and rain with you right now...sigh.....

Thing is, over here, that you CAN have a real antique, 'slong as you don't try and fire it. If you do, then you be's breaking the law big time. This is because you are actually firing an unlicensed firearm - penalty - five years and unlimited fine and loss of your guns and licence forever.

Similarly, you can own any antique cartidge-firing weapon for which ammunition is no longer available, but again, you cannot then decide that you'd like to shoot it after all - same deal as above.

Let's say that I bought a Mauser Model 1871/84 - the first successful bolt-action Mauser, in 11mm/.43cal. No problem. I can look at it all day.

But if I wanted to shoot it, then I would have to have it put on my Firearms Certificate as a Section 1 firearm, same as my Kricos, Mausers, Parker-Hales, Rugers and so on.

I could even buy one now, so long as I don't want to shoot it. But to get it on my 'ticket' so's I can shoot it right now means getting rid of three other guns, so that this one becomes my 16th gun - the limit in THIS county where I have my house and Firearms Certificate.

In the next county over - Northamptonshire - there is no such limit - many club members who live there have forty or fifty guns or more...

At my recent renewal interview, I was told by the FEO [Firearms Enquiry Officer] that I was 'suffered' to have more than sixteen because I had had them before the present ruling came in, and that four of my guns were BP shooters, and therefore constituted less risk to the public safety. I was speechless. Partly with astonishment, and partly with rage, so I kept my gob shut.

I'm figure something out, for sure. Might just end up with a friend of mine in OR getting a nice birthday present that I can shoot when we are over.

All the best for Christmas! The traffic light party in Port Orford won't be the same without us this year!

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

 

[Lonegun1894]

Tac,
Seeing as you beat me to the idea of having one without the flashhole drilled, since there are no restrictions on a "non-firing kit"... what if you got a non-firing kit, with a extra liner that does happen to be drilled, but just keep the non-drilled one in the rifle except for when you go to shoot it? I'm not trying to get you in any trouble, but wouldn't a drilled liner just be mailable in a envelope with a Christmas card or something? If so, PM someone with your address and needed thread so you can be sent a nice Christmas or Birthday card or something when the time comes. Once again, dont get yourself in trouble, but I'm sure someone would be willing to help you out. :thumbsup:

 

[Celt5494]

I'm really sorry to hear the news. Maybe you should move to the next county over and avoid those restrictions? You could always upon retirement figure out a nice state here to reside in and pick up to come on over.

Either way,
A Merry Christmas to you.......

 

[hoochiepapa]

tac
We have an extra bedroom, with it's own bath.
My heart goes out to you.
There's why we fought for our independence.

 

TAC,
You may have hit on the answer, NON FIRING. How about having a longrifle built in the white, for the value added taxation, and not have it drilled for touch hole? Surely you could get that much done at home, but on entry it would be a "non firing" curio.
Mark :idunno: