George Newton nipples

[Eterry]

I bought this Birmingham double barrel 12 bore, the barrels are in really good shape. The nipples are worthless.
I got the old ones out, am looking for replacements.

What size are original British shotgun nipples?
They are smaller than 1/4", larger than 15/64".
Thanks.

 

[LawrenceA]

Hi Eterry
I can't give you an answer but: are both nipples the same size?
If so then I would suggest that they are probably 1/4 but I would check. Can you borrow a vernier to check? Then you need to determine pitch.
I would do this by using a pitch gauge to measure the thread pitch then find a bolt or screw or something of that diameter and pitch and carefully (no force) see if it screws into the breach. But make sure the threads are as clean as practical.

Hope this helps if no one else can.

I did this with my original Belgian gun and was surprised to find they were 6X1mm. Same as Traditions.

 

[Zonie]

If they are larger than 15/64 (.2344") then might try a 6 mm thread (.2362"). an increase in size of .002" can make a loose thread feel pretty tight.
If the threads look rather course a M6 - 1.0 nipple thread will be close to a very undersize 1/4-28 pitch thread.

 

[LawrenceA]

If they are larger than 15/64 (.2344") then might try a 6 mm thread (.2362"). an increase in size of .002" can make a loose thread feel pretty tight.
If the threads look rather course a M6 - 1.0 nipple thread will be close to a very undersize 1/4-28 pitch thread.

Never dawned on me they may be metric!
Apologies Eterry

 

[Eterry]

They are both the same size, they are both smaller than 1/4", but slightly larger than 15/64", according to Brownell's thread checker.

Update, I didn't have a thread gauge, but just checked the thread OD on my calipers, they both are .250"

I don't know if British had a standard nipple size, probably not.

 

[Eterry]

If they are larger than 15/64 (.2344") then might try a 6 mm thread (.2362"). an increase in size of .002" can make a loose thread feel pretty tight.
If the threads look rather course a M6 - 1.0 nipple thread will be close to a very undersize 1/4-28 pitch thread.

Having a little trouble wrapping my head around metric threads on a gun built before 1900. They could be tapped to a larger size, i was hoping for a standardization...I thought the British were known for that.

 

[LawrenceA]

I think it was Napoleon that introduced Metric so early 1800's

 

[Zonie]

Having a little trouble wrapping my head around metric threads on a gun built before 1900. They could be tapped to a larger size, i was hoping for a standardization...I thought the British were known for that.

The reason I mentioned the metric thread is because it is slightly larger than the 15/64 size mentioned as being too small. I was not saying that a British gun would have originally used metric threaded nipples.

According to Dixie Gun Works catalogs, 28 threads per inch was pretty much the standard for original nipples on sporting guns and 1/4" was a popular diameter but there were a some exceptions on American guns nipple thread diameters.

It would sure be nice if some of our members from the UK could list the common threads used on original British guns nipples. I would think they would have been standardized as most of the British manufacturers were located in the London or Birmingham areas.

 

[LawrenceA]

Have you checked the threads per inch? With 0.250 being 1/4" then there is likely a good chance they are 1/4 by 28.
Even if you can find a saw blade or something that is 28 TPI you can check the TPI or see if you can locate a nipple that size.
Failing that borrow a pitch gauge (the local garage may have one in the workshop) or lash out and buy a cheapy on ebay.
They are very handy when playing with old guns.

 

[Eterry]

Brittsmoothy, check in.

 

[Eterry]

Or Feltwad, or TFoley

 

[fleener]

I might be able to tell you the size, perhaps in a week or so. I have a old english sporting rifle that needs a new nipple, it is just a tad smaller then 1/4x28 as well. I am meeting with Mike from Flintlocks LLC in a few days and he has a wide array of nipples, I think we will find the right size in his inventory.

Fleener

 

[Eterry]

Thanks Fleener, I buy from Mike at Flintlocks Inc every chance i get. Please keep me updated.

 

[Feltwad]

All original British percussion shot guns are fitted with two sizes of nipple 1/4 BSF and 9/32 BSF
Feltwad

 

[Eterry]

Thank you Feltwad

 

[Ontario47]

Metrication (metrification) was started and formalized in France with the French Revolution 1789-1799; and is still slowly spreading worldwide. Old habits die hard, and in 1812 Napoleon decreeed the change over official. In the US the Metric Conversion Act of 1975 was passed in 1975 (@#$%##) but never funded (#$#$%@@). Do yourself a favor and buy a set of metric (SI) and english (SAE) thread gages, you will use them repeatedly .

 

[Notchy Bob]

The photo in the original post shows a Brownell's Screw Check'r, which has unthreaded body-sized holes in addition to threaded holes in coarse and fine threads for all of the fractional sizes shown. The photo shows the nipple placed in the quarter-inch unthreaded hole. Post #5 indicates the OD is .250", which is 1/4 inch. Two holes to the right of this is the 1/4 x 28 threaded hole. Have you tried screwing the nipple into the 1/4 x 28 threaded hole on the Screw Check'r?

We have an old percussion Scott double that uses standard 1/4" x 28 nipples, although I believe the cones are turned for #12 caps.

I hope you get the old boy back into service. When it comes to those old doubles, they really don't build 'em like they used to. Good luck!

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[ord sgt]

You have a thread checker from Brownells in US standard threads. Brownells has a metric thread checker too. I know, I have one.

 

[Zonie]

All original British percussion shot guns are fitted with two sizes of nipple 1/4 BSF and 9/32 BSF
Feltwad

Very interesting.
Looking into these BSF (British Standard Fine) threads I see they have a different thread shape when compared to the standard threads used in the USA and in the Metric thread system.

The included angle from one thread surface to the other side of the V is 55° rather than the 60° angle we commonly use for the Unified threads. The British Whitworth threads also use this 55° included angle. This different thread form, even if the sizes of the BSF threads were the same as our Unified threads (which they aren't), would prevent a Unified thread from screwing into it easily if at all.

The external 1/4 BSF thead has a outside (major) diameter of .250 with a thread pitch of 26 threads per inch.
The external 9/32 BSF thread has a outside (major) diameter of .2814 with a thread pitch of 26 threads per inch.

There are no standard Unified threads that use a 26 threads per inch pitch and there are no standard Unified threads with a 9/32 major diameter. Even if there were, the thread shape would prevent the 60° angle of the Unified threads from screwing into a BSF threaded hole.

I don't know of any US distributor that sells nipples with a BSF thread series. Are there any makers of these in the UK?

 

[Notchy Bob]

Very interesting.
Looking into these BSF (British Standard Fine) threads I see they have a different thread shape when compared to the standard threads used in the USA and in the Metric thread system.

The included angle from one thread surface to the other side of the V is 55° rather than the 60° angle we commonly use for the Unified threads. The British Whitworth threads also use this 55° included angle. This different thread form, even if the sizes of the BSF threads were the same as our Unified threads (which they aren't), would prevent a Unified thread from screwing into it easily if at all.

The external 1/4 BSF thead has a outside (major) diameter of .250 with a thread pitch of 26 threads per inch.
The external 9/32 BSF thread has a outside (major) diameter of .2814 with a thread pitch of 26 threads per inch.

There are no standard Unified threads that use a 26 threads per inch pitch and there are no standard Unified threads with a 9/32 major diameter. Even if there were, the thread shape would prevent the 60° angle of the Unified threads from screwing into a BSF threaded hole.

I don't know of any US distributor that sells nipples with a BSF thread series. Are there any makers of these in the UK?

Well, I learned something new! I had no idea!

I went to the Peter Dyson & Son website and found they carry a variety of nipples with standard threads, but they will also make custom nipples to order: "Special nipples can be made to order to match original threads and for any cap size." These aren't cheap, at 20 pounds apiece, but likely worth it for restoring a fine old gun.

If the OP is convinced the threads are non-standard, maybe contact Peter Dyson for help. If it were mine, I would try to get nipples to fit the gun, rather than permanently modify the gun for modern nipples.

Please let us know what you find. Good luck!

Notchy Bob