Getting a frizzen rehardened

[goon]

Hi guys,
Anyone know where I can get a frizzen rehardened? Mine is borderline as it is - throwning dull orange sparks and not a whole lot of them. It also seems to be getting a few deep scratches from really sharp new flints. I think a rehardening would help a lot.

 

[rich pierce]

This is tricky business. The type of steel used in the frizzen needs to be known then there are several approaches, each with their risks and rewards.

If somebody uses Kasenit and quenches in water, if all goes well you could have a super hard, super thin skin on your frizzen. If it doesn't go well the frizzen could crack when quenching in water which is recommended for Kasenit hardening.

If somebody does a charcoal pack hardening and leaves it in for 90 minutes or so you may get a lot of carbon in much deeper than with Kasenit but the same quenching risks are involved, assuming the frizzen is "high carbon" to begin with.

Carbon could be added with a carburizing flame on a torch but won't go super deep unless you have all day.

Adding a "shoe" or high carbon steel face riveted or brazed on would work and look like a good period repair.

I would recommend getting a new frizzen. If it's a Chambers lock he'd replace it.

 

[goon]

It's an old Pedersoli Bess.
It sparks well enough to set the pan off much of the time but it's not super great. I'm looking ahead with this just in case playing around with the flints doesn't help - but I'm also thinking that a flint shouldn't bite into it like it does. Frizzens for them are like $80 and I'm not sure how great one would spark to begin with.

 

[ebiggs1]

If I checked the right frizzen, Dixie has them for $55. In my opinion a new frizzen is a better way to go than trying to re-harden the one you have. Even if you do it yourself, it isn’t without cost. I have played around with several and like Mr. Pierce says it is tricky especially if you are not familiar with metalworking. I was a tool and die maker for 40 years before retiring. Go with the new one!

 

[gmarc]

Has it always been borderline in sparking? If it sparks at all, it has likely been through-hardened, if used much. Test it like so: Using a dull file EDGE on the face of the frizzen, it should pretty much skip off. A SHARP file should just bite. If the face, esp. around the deep scratches you describe, is EASILY cut with the file, yhen the face is not very hard.

The carburizing done by Kasenit is not deep at all. KASENIT is not meant to serve in faces that strike each other with much force and hard faces that can be scraped off; it is more suited to surfaces like revolver hands, pawls and rebound slides, hammer sears, etc that "rub" more than "hit" and where the mating surfaces are of equal hardness. This is not the case with a flint/frizzen relationship.

Case hardening is used when you need a more durable mating surface on a part that is softer/tougher at its core, vs. hard

If it was my frizzen, I would try:

Smooth the face and try file test. If the file skips, remount to gun and test. If file bites readily, the face is not hard.

You can re-harden the face with a torch and a compound called "Turco" which prevents decarburization. If the frizzen is made of hi-carbon steel, the below technique will work.

Heat "turcoed" part to low "salmon" orange and quench immediately in oil. Test with file, it should skip off.

Temper in your home oven at 500F for one hour after oven is fully heated up. Remove and test with file....it should just bite. Remove and test on gun. If frizen does not spark, and flint flakes, it is likely too hard...brighten face and use propane torch to draw color to "peacock" blue. Retest. If still too hard, torch temper to purple. Retest

You can see how buying another frizzen might be less trouble

 

[LRB]

500° is way much too hot. Use an oven thermometer, do not trust the dial setting. You want a temper at 375°, to 400°. No more than that. You will not need Turco. The steel will not be hot long enough to decarb. You will get a more even temper if you bury the frizzen in dry sand in a deep enough pan. The dry sand will control the temperature changes as your thermostat fluctuates the heat. After temper, polish the tail and screw boss section bright, then protect the frizzen plate section by mounting it in a can of water. Then heat the rest to a blue, and let cool, or quench it in the water when it turns blue. If you temper at 500°, you will be worse off than you are, and you can safely take bets on that, and to do this is not near as hard as it sounds, and a whole lot cheaper than $55.00!

 

[4570tc]

an old Dixie gunworks catalog had a tip on rehardig a frizzen the old way it went like this; anneal the frizzen by heating it in a hot fire, let it cool naturaly, wrap the frizzen face in leather ( I wrap the whole frizzen blade in leather) then wrap the whole thing in several pieces of aluminium foil tightly, then place in a steel (soup can)SMASH THE CAN closed and place in a HOT fire for 40 min. quickly remove the can from the fire and put in a bucket of cold water, move it around so it cools as quick as possible. remove frizzen from can and test with a file. polish the striker face, and use.
I have done a good many this way always with good results. just don't leave it in the fire longer than 45 mins as it hardens all the way through, and will mak it prone to breaking.

 

[rootsy]

Crystalline grain structure in steel is dependent upon the cooling rate and the chemical composition of the steel. Cooling rate and chemical composition define the crystalline grain structure which in turn defines how "brittle" and how "hard" it is. Martensite, bainite, pearlite... The 3 main crystalline structures. Tempering is the process of decomposing Martensite crystals which adds toughness while maintaining hardness (which will be less than straight quenced).

This is why it is important to know exactly what you have with regard to material before heat treating. Without this information you have no real idea as to how fast a quench is required and how hard and or brittle the result will be.

Trial and error is really the only way without material knowledge and even then a forge or torch and some liquid of appropriate type will only get you "close"... maybe... maybe not. The piece may crack if quenched too quickly and that is really the worst that can occur. Otherwise anneal it and start over.

 

[goon]

Actually, I have no idea on the history of the gun other than that it was a "loaner" for a reenactment group. It wasn't cared for all that well, but it's not in terrible shape either. I just got it less than a week ago.
But it appears I got too pessimistic too soon. It came with some black flints that looked like the black English ones I got from TOTW - but after switching them they definitely aren't the same. The ones from TOTW make a lot of difference and the French ones from them - Yeesh! I tried dry firing and it's getting sparks in the pan every time, even now that the flint I've been dry firing with is getting a little dull. So I guess I should just clean it up some more and enjoy it.
But my plan is to clean it up like you said so I can see what's really going on at least, then do the file test. But at this point, I'm optomisitic that my problem is more imagined than real.

 

[LRB]

Sounds like it may be fine. Dry fire it in a dark room. Bright red-orange sparks are good. yellow-white usually OK, but generally small and indicates the frizzen may be too hard. Red to dull red sparks indicate a frizzen on the soft side, although usable until the flint digs a trench across it.

 

[tmdreb]

500° is way much too hot. Use an oven thermometer, do not trust the dial setting. You want a temper at 375°, to 400°. No more than that. You will not need Turco. The steel will not be hot long enough to decarb. You will get a more even temper if you bury the frizzen in dry sand in a deep enough pan. The dry sand will control the temperature changes as your thermostat fluctuates the heat. After temper, polish the tail and screw boss section bright, then protect the frizzen plate section by mounting it in a can of water. Then heat the rest to a blue, and let cool, or quench it in the water when it turns blue. If you temper at 500°, you will be worse off than you are, and you can safely take bets on that, and to do this is not near as hard as it sounds, and a whole lot cheaper than $55.00!

What do you use to get the metal to turn blue?

 

[LRB]

A common propane torch will do it. Use a low flame and bring the heat up slow and even. Once colors start to show, they can change pretty fast. Be sure the steel is clean of finger and other oils, and is reasonably bright polished.

 

[tmdreb]

Thanks! I'm glad I decided to read up on the subject before buying Kasenit. I was just about to make the purchase.