Getting 'Bess Ready for Turkey Season

[user 43911]

Less powder more shot is a good rule don't want to blow through your shot and have a big hole in the middle of your pattern.

Why would a big hole be blown through the middle of the pattern ?.
I'm an advocate for not running a heavy powder load, I also don't fall into the rule of tonnage group.

 

[Carl.allen934]

Why would a big hole be blown through the middle of the pattern ?.
I'm an advocate for not running a heavy powder load, I also don't fall into the rule of tonnage group.

Ask any old timer they will say more shot less powder. I get better patterns with that rule I have built a 12 and 20 gage fowler 42" barrels both flint lock with Rice barrels. The 20 gage has a chambers lock the 12 gage has an L&R Queen Ann lock. I like the chambers better I get better spark from it.

 

[user 43911]

Ask any old timer they will say more shot less powder. I get better patterns with that rule I have built a 12 and 20 gage fowler 42" barrels both flint lock with Rice barrels. The 20 gage has a chambers lock the 12 gage has an L&R Queen Ann lock. I like the chambers better I get better spark from it.

O.K. that didn't explain why the hole in pattern, the rest is a little off track and left me scratching my head.

 

[Carl.allen934]

O.K. that didn't explain why the hole in pattern, the rest is a little off track and left me scratching my head.

Pressure to high of charge will leave your shot pattern with less in the middle the wad blows through it after it leaves the muzzle

 

[Britsmoothy]

O.K. that didn't explain why the hole in pattern, the rest is a little off track and left me scratching my head.

It's not necessarily true but does happen especially when great big fibre wads and nitro cards are used because for some reason the average person thinks you load a muzzloader like you do a cartridge.

It stems from the fact that black powder produces so much gas and particulates that on leaving the muzzle speed up. That can push the just emerged wad arrangement into the rear of the shot column encouraging it to spread rapidly.

Using thin cards, paper, or an inert powder helps to prevent this.
I've always maintained that the development of choke was first to override the effects of wads in cartridges from this phenomenon but have no proof!

I personally have shot equal volumes and even more powder and missed and taken game to the same degree as any other ratio.
As for my recommendation of 2oz over 90-100 grains of 3f has nothing to do with the mantra " more lead" blah blah but everything to do with experience.
Anyone that understand black powder knows that it gets more efficient with more load upon it up to a point.

If one manages to get one of those sharp eyed birds in range one doesn't want to miss it by skimping on shot for possibly one dam shot of the day!

 

[shaman]

I dug up an article from the NMRLA:

https://www.nmlra.org/news/hunting-turkey-with-a-smooth-bore-flintlock-ask-the-experts

 

[pacanis]

Corn meal stinks when you shoot it

It doesn't stink when I use it in my 1859 Sharps.
But seeing as how this apparently is a well guarded secret I may never find out in my BB.

 

[user 43911]

I dug up an article from the NMRLA:

https://www.nmlra.org/news/hunting-turkey-with-a-smooth-bore-flintlock-ask-the-experts

Basically all over the map, EACH GUN HAS IT's OWN PREFERANCE.

 

[user 43911]

It's not necessarily true but does happen especially when great big fibre wads and nitro cards are used because for some reason the average person thinks you load a muzzloader like you do a cartridge.

It stems from the fact that black powder produces so much gas and particulates that on leaving the muzzle speed up. That can push the just emerged wad arrangement into the rear of the shot column encouraging it to spread rapidly.

Using thin cards, paper, or an inert powder helps to prevent this.
I've always maintained that the development of choke was first to override the effects of wads in cartridges from this phenomenon but have no proof!

I personally have shot equal volumes and even more powder and missed and taken game to the same degree as any other ratio.
As for my recommendation of 2oz over 90-100 grains of 3f has nothing to do with the mantra " more lead" blah blah but everything to do with experience.
Anyone that understand black powder knows that it gets more efficient with more load upon it up to a point.

If one manages to get one of those sharp eyed birds in range one doesn't want to miss it by skimping on shot for possibly one dam shot of the day!

Not to get into a measuring contest but I have issue with a couple of points,

Powder burning/gas may appear to be accelerating when it exits the muzzle, it's expanding at the same rate as in the barrel and is why the load of shot or ball is being driven down that barrel along with the unburnt portion on powder, when it exits, near all the driving force dissipates being sent in all directions (path of least resistance) along with any unburnt powder that open air burns (muzzle flash, inefficient load), the shot has mass and now momentum, at the point it is leaving the barrel the shot (in this case) is set back against the wad to almost a solid block, with reduced driving force and the wad being a flat light disc it is left behind, the shot is not seen by the eye but the wad is and often misread, I noted this before when some shooters state they missed a given target ahead/behind/over or under because they saw the path of the wad, not necessarily true, most times they stopped the gun but they saw the wad .
( above: flat to oncoming air)

The key elements are powder load development, correct powder burn rate for a given barrel length, this can be affected greatly by the weight of the payload to include weight of wad and card, resistance of payload (how tight is it in the bore), this is no different in modern powder loads, optimum burn is what is being looked for, near all the powder is burnt just before the payload exits the muzzle. This can be hard to perfect with black powder as it is not an efficient fuel and burn rate being established by granular size (composition is mostly the same).
As you noted Britsmoothy your experience led to the load you recommended, if it's broken down the powder load development prosses has taken place, without barrel length given. Starting with 3f powder (burn rate), resistance to that burn rate/gas is the 2 oz of shot ( 874 grain projectile plus wad/cards weight), without chrono numbers I would guess that velocity is not high (under 1,150fps) with low muzzle blast, it works in your gun.

I did some testing a few years ago (3,000 shots), most of the best patterns were with lower powder loads with corresponding lower velocity, heavy shot loads did not benefit from the extra shot, fast loads damaged more shot from set back and abrasion against the bore leading to hot core waste, fillers and buffers can have benefits but make load more finicky.

The OP in this case is trying to figure a load for a 42" barrel .750 bore (11 gauge), by bore size it will be a lower pressure load, to me (just my 2 cents) I would start with a powder load from 70 to 90 grains of whatever F burns most completely before the muzzle is reached, tight fitting wad/card combo with shot at 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 oz (546 grains to 655 grains).
Forgot, The OP also noted an average distance to target (Turkey) of 16 yards.

The user will have to test what works best in his gun.
EDIT: Spelling

 

[user 43911]

Pressure to high of charge will leave your shot pattern with less in the middle the wad blows through it after it leaves the muzzle

The point/ question I was trying to raise in the post above, I have never known an object increasing in speed after it has left the gun.
The gas being created has to happen at an accelerated rate , X cubic inches per second for a total of X bore volume plus in order to drive the object out of the tube, when the tube/containment has gone or powder burnt (fuel) driving force has gone. Piston engine, add fuel air mix, compress, light it, driving force being generated , open valve= no more driving force.
If the velocity is high damage occurs to the shot from excessive set back and also because of heavy set back the shot against the bore is ground down , this shot will fly off to the sides, high velocity and the set back that comes with it also causes the shot column when in the gun to become very short, this compression excerpts a lot of pressure against the barrel walls (as noted with pellet grind down) and has an effect at the muzzle, if you compress somethings length it has to go sideways if that is not an option because it's in a tube what happens when the tube is no longer there, every action has reaction, the outer shot is lost as it wants to move away from compressed mass ( resulting in hot core). First picture shows set back, 2nd shows high velocity shot grind (flat spots) and the 3rd picture shows wad and card in the blast , shot has gone.

 

[Britsmoothy]

The point/ question I was trying to raise in the post above, I have never known an object increasing in speed after it has left the gun.
The gas being created has to happen at an accelerated rate , X cubic inches per second for a total of X bore volume plus in order to drive the object out of the tube, when the tube/containment has gone or powder burnt (fuel) driving force has gone. Piston engine, add fuel air mix, compress, light it, driving force being generated , open valve= no more driving force.
If the velocity is high damage occurs to the shot from excessive set back and also because of heavy set back the shot against the bore is ground down , this shot will fly off to the sides, high velocity and the set back that comes with it also causes the shot column when in the gun to become very short, this compression excerpts a lot of pressure against the barrel walls (as noted with pellet grind down) and has an effect at the muzzle, if you compress somethings length it has to go sideways if that is not an option because it's in a tube what happens when the tube is no longer there, every action has reaction, the outer shot is lost as it wants to move away from compressed mass ( resulting in hot core). First picture shows set back, 2nd shows high velocity shot grind (flat spots) and the 3rd picture shows wad and card in the blast , shot has gone.

No relationship to black powder what so ever I'm afraid.
You are assuming to much my friend.
Those same photographs using black powder you would see nothing because contrary to your assumption the gasses from black powder are vastly larger in volume than a smokeless load and once free it does accelerate into the now free payload..
I've had this conversation so many times now it's getting boring.
A new guy comes along, spent hours loading smokeless shot shells and thinks it can co relate to muzzloaders using black powder, it doesn't.

Smokeless peaks quicker and is consumed quicker.
Black powder peaks slower but keeps burning once free of the barrel, hence the bright flames. No comparison what so ever!
Dig around for photographs of muzzloader shotguns that catch the emerging ejecta and then try telling me that I'm wrong! Good luck.
B.

 

[user 43911]

Not a new guy at all, my tests were all black powder. Pictures were used to show set back and is more visible with a plastic shot cup, one is a wad and card load. I spent many years instructing firearms and explosives.

Smokeless has many rates of burn and often is not consumed in the barrel, gases from black powder are a product of volume and granular size effecting burn rate therefor gas production rate, if powder is still burning outside of the barrel it's because there is more than needed for a given task along with the inefficient burn characteristics , the inefficacy of black powder will lead to some external burn but outside of a barrel/containment has little power. You are correct about not seeing anything, it's black powder hell I can't see the target, nature of it's make up, it's smoky.

Try a 90/100 grain load of 4f with 2oz of shot and see how much powder is burning outside of the barrel, being that black powder peaks slower.

"Does accelerate into the now free payload", what. If the payload was standing still a foot from the muzzle maybe but if it left the gun at 1200 fps with the wad pressed up against the shot the unburnt fizzling powder and residual driving gas has next to no driving force as the load is moving away at 1200 fps.

Modern powder keeps burning outside the barrel and also has a bright flash.

Ballistics are ballistics, there is a very brief moment just outside of the barrel were the velocity of the gasses produced to drive the load are as great as the velocity of the projectile, but after it has left the barrel it can not increase speed as it has no directional force guidance (forward) of the tube it was in.

I was not stating you were wrong and as far as dig around for pictures of emerging ejecta from a black powder firearm, there are many showing what is happening just after the shot has left, exactly that, the payload has left, all that smoke and yellow/orange flame is the tail pipe. I was trying to present an opinion based on my experiences, some are based on 40 plus years of firearms and explosive use and testing, black powder smoothbore testing in 28,20 and 12 gauge and I did not see a fiber wad, nitro card or similar blow through a shot column, even when I was testing with S&W, Remington, Blazer or Federal Ammunition, testing with black powder and modern, if modern is so volatile the effects of high speed gas would be greater, no upset of shot was seen, the wad slows down aggressively when it's not being driven and has little mass or momentum along with a flat disc presented to the oncoming air it's passing through at 1200 fps, the payload has mass and momentum and has moved ahead .

I did not resort to sarcasm or attempt to belittle I just gave an alternate answer and opinion, at one point some people said the world was flat and nobody could say otherwise, some of it may give answers or thoughts to others on questions not asked.

Sorry have to add, to the OP I apologize for the thread drift, test some loads and you will find what works for you.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Not a new guy at all, my tests were all black powder. Pictures were used to show set back and is more visible with a plastic shot cup, one is a wad and card load. I spent many years instructing firearms and explosives.

Smokeless has many rates of burn and often is not consumed in the barrel, gases from black powder are a product of volume and granular size effecting burn rate therefor gas production rate, if powder is still burning outside of the barrel it's because there is more than needed for a given task along with the inefficient burn characteristics , the inefficacy of black powder will lead to some external burn but outside of a barrel/containment has little power. You are correct about not seeing anything, it's black powder hell I can't see the target, nature of it's make up, it's smoky.

Try a 90/100 grain load of 4f with 2oz of shot and see how much powder is burning outside of the barrel, being that black powder peaks slower.

"Does accelerate into the now free payload", what. If the payload was standing still a foot from the muzzle maybe but if it left the gun at 1200 fps with the wad pressed up against the shot the unburnt fizzling powder and residual driving gas has next to no driving force as the load is moving away at 1200 fps.

Modern powder keeps burning outside the barrel and also has a bright flash.

Ballistics are ballistics, there is a very brief moment just outside of the barrel were the velocity of the gasses produced to drive the load are as great as the velocity of the projectile, but after it has left the barrel it can not increase speed as it has no directional force guidance (forward) of the tube it was in.

I was not stating you were wrong and as far as dig around for pictures of emerging ejecta from a black powder firearm, there are many showing what is happening just after the shot has left, exactly that, the payload has left, all that smoke and yellow/orange flame is the tail pipe. I was trying to present an opinion based on my experiences, some are based on 40 plus years of firearms and explosive use and testing, black powder smoothbore testing in 28,20 and 12 gauge and I did not see a fiber wad, nitro card or similar blow through a shot column, even when I was testing with S&W, Remington, Blazer or Federal Ammunition, testing with black powder and modern, if modern is so volatile the effects of high speed gas would be greater, no upset of shot was seen, the wad slows down aggressively when it's not being driven and has little mass or momentum along with a flat disc presented to the oncoming air it's passing through at 1200 fps, the payload has mass and momentum and has moved ahead .

I did not resort to sarcasm or attempt to belittle I just gave an alternate answer and opinion, at one point some people said the world was flat and nobody could say otherwise, some of it may give answers or thoughts to others on questions not asked.

Sorry have to add, to the OP I apologize for the thread drift, test some loads and you will find what works for you.

In your first photograph you can observe the smokeless gas has accelerated past the base of the wad.
In your second photo you can observe the gas seal is expanded, possibly via invisible pressure.
It is therefore reasonable to understand that for a millisecond the venting gasses do accelerate faster than the freshly emerged payload. In fact if you add Newton's laws the gas , the driving force is going to have more energy otherwise it would not propel anything.
Anyone that understands hydraulics knows that a larger volume can do more work. Black powder produces more volume of gas. It takes a micro second of influence on a heavy wad to add energy to the rear of the shot column and induce spread at a greater rate.

As for powder burning out of the barrel being inefficient the whole process is inefficient! The energy put into making black powder and it's yield are always going to be inefficient.
Trying to circumnavigate this via burning less is also folly.
Muzzle flash from smokeless powders can be due to a number of reasons. A suppressing ingredient for instance becoming ineffective once a new source of oxygen is found outside of the muzzle. Nothing to do with inefficiency, just chemical reactions.

My advice to any muzzloader shotgun user will always be the same it always has been for thirty years, don't use fibre wads or them nitro cards!
Oh, and my favourite grade is 4-3f, 10g and under.
Good day.

 

[Carl.allen934]

It doesn't stink when I use it in my 1859 Sharps.
But seeing as how this apparently is a well guarded secret I may never find out in my BB.

Not saying it don't work it does protect the bullet

 

[pacanis]

Not saying it don't work it does protect the bullet

I didn't say you did.

 

[user 43911]

Britsmoothy,
Not going to keep going on this but if you read what I posted above, see below,

"Ballistics are ballistics, there is a very brief moment just outside of the barrel were the velocity of the gasses produced to drive the load are as great as the velocity of the projectile, but after it has left the barrel it can not increase speed as it has no directional force guidance (forward) of the tube it was in."

Your opinion noted, my opinion is a fiber wad and or over powder cards do as they were intended to do, they obturate and seal the gases from mixing with the shot, tow was used before wads came about to do the same job, as far a suppressing agent and new source of oxygen, really, of course muzzle flash can be many things but in the scope of the discussion I did not think we were going to list every possibility.

You Said,
"As for powder burning out of the barrel being inefficient the whole process is inefficient! The energy put into making black powder and it's yield are always going to be inefficient" not sure I'm following you here. Your statement of using 4f if memory serves me there was some dispute/ energetic posts in 2020 with your recommending 4f in large caliber.
Anyway, as you stated before "I've had this conversation so many times now it's getting boring" O.K. this means so many other people are wrong because it is contrary to what you believe, Skychief's load would be more incorrect as it adds a well soaked wad in front of shot, many people have good results with it, some not so much, this method should be doomed as it gets a tap from the rear and a stalling wad in front.

My recommendation based on 40 years of doing it for a living is, try many things and find out what works in your gun, an over powder card and more efficient a fiber wad is designed to obturate and seal the gases from mixing with the shot (blowing by) and may improve results.

I would like to say, this is the end of discussion on my part.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Dear DBrevit, in your image #1, how have the gasses gotten past the base of the wad if they can not accelerate faster for a short time?

In image #2, why is the gas seal still flared?

In image #3, what is the substance behind, around and in front of the payload?

My opinion is likewise based on many years experience my friend.

The skychief load is easy to understand.
The heavy wad up front does not slow up as quick as a thin card. It therefore figuratively, does not slam into the front of the shot column.

Tow does not behave like a manufactured fibre wad once free of the barrel, hence why it produces better patterns generally and compared to fibre wads. In fact paper is better than a fibre wad, in a shot shell or muzzloader, just beware of potential fire risks used with black powder.

 

[shaman]

Basically all over the map, EACH GUN HAS IT's OWN PREFERANCE.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

That's my conclusion. That's not to say this is a futile discussion. I'm getting loads of info

BTW: I've experienced doughnut holes in loads with modern shotgun loads. The most aggregious was with a case of Yugo-trash I picked up cheap in the 80s. It took me years to figure out that was why my trap shooting had gone to @$@#@$. The problem was the card loaded ahead of the load. At 20 yards it put a 36" hole in the middle of the spread.

The OP's conclusions so far:
1) I'm ditching the candle load idea. I've been unable to find any corroboration that it worked.
2) Skychief seems to be the Easy Button load, but it is not a unanimous favorite
3) I had originally set my sights on a 2 OZ load, but that seems to be another variable I'll have to test
4) Few people are talking about shot cups. Since they take a lot of prep, I may ditch that Idea for now.

This is shaping up to be not at all what I expected.

Thanks all for the efforts.

 

[user 43911]

Ding! Ding! Ding!

That's my conclusion. That's not to say this is a futile discussion. I'm getting loads of info

BTW: I've experienced doughnut holes in loads with modern shotgun loads. The most aggregious was with a case of Yugo-trash I picked up cheap in the 80s. It took me years to figure out that was why my trap shooting had gone to @$@#@$. The problem was the card loaded ahead of the load. At 20 yards it put a 36" hole in the middle of the spread.

The OP's conclusions so far:
1) I'm ditching the candle load idea. I've been unable to find any corroboration that it worked.
2) Skychief seems to be the Easy Button load, but it is not a unanimous favorite
3) I had originally set my sights on a 2 OZ load, but that seems to be another variable I'll have to test
4) Few people are talking about shot cups. Since they take a lot of prep, I may ditch that Idea for now.

This is shaping up to be not at all what I expected.

Thanks all for the efforts.

Many donut holes in a pattern are caused by other things than a card ahead of the shot.

I wish you well in your search for a good turkey load. Test at the distance you intend to shoot.
Best Regards.

 

[shaman]

Thanks.

It was with some trepidation that I first tried the Skychief load in the 'Bess. That big oil-filled wad just screamed "Donut Hole!" However, I tried it with an oz of shot in anticipation of squirrel and it threw about as decent a pattern as my 12 GA Rem 1100 with #6 field loads.