Getting started

[lighthorse]

So now I have my first muzzle loader, a Armi Sport Hawken style rifle in .50 caliber in what seems to be in good working order and appears to be hardly used if at all and that's all I have. I acquired this rifle in trade. I have no balls, powder, caps, patches or any accoutrements yet nor any printed manual on the rifle.

I have been studying about proper loads for this type of rifle and I have found much depends on the rifle and the size of the grooves for example and whether one is hunting or target shooting. So most people go through an experimentation of what is right for their rifle.

At this point I have determined for starters that I will go with the .490 ball and .015 patch with 70 gr. of 2fg for target shooting.

I would love to hear from others on this as to whether my starting load would be good. I'm new to black powder rifles.

I still have some questions though.

2fg vs. 3fg?

What kind of lube? I hear some use Crisco while I've also heard some use Hoppes #9 BP solvent for lube which some say eliminates swabbing.

What is a good black powder brand?

Cap size? I presuming it's a #11 like most.

Is 70gr. too much for target shooting? Someone told me that 45gr is good.

What is a good way to measure and dispense powder? I'm kinda partial to having traditional flasks or horns but as a newbie should I use an old shell casing or modern form of powder measure for accuracy.

Anyway I'm looking into getting a copy of "The Gunsmith of Grenville County" are their any other good titles out their on BP muzzle loaders?

Thank you for any help,
Jim

 

[Lonegun1894]

Aside from reading and asking questions here, I would recommend getting a Copy of Dutch Schultz's Accuracy System. It isn't fancy, but it is probably the best $20 you can spend on this, and will save you a lot more than the $20 you spent buying it. When you get it, read it 3-4 times, and then, on occasion, reread it again, and again, and again, as you will find stuff you missed the first 5-10+ times, and it will all help you. It will also save you some money as far as making your own gear too, so it's a win/win situation.

Lube is a personal preference thing, and anything that doesn't have petroleum in it works well, including plain old spit for range use (although I wouldn't recommend it for hunting). As to the measure, I would get an adjustable one just to make it easy to experiment with different loads, and then make your own out of whatever you have handy just make sure it holds the right amount of powder that your accuracy load was. As to a powder horn, I still use the same cheapie I bought 15-20yrs ago, and think it was sold by Traditions, so you know it isn't anything fancy, but it works. I attempted to make a second smaller horn, and ended up with a very ugly, but functional horn that I use to hold shot when using my smoothbores. Just make sure you have a separate measure instead of one of the fixed spouts on your horn/flask. This is to make sure that, should you ever screw up and ignite the powder you're dropping down the muzzle to load, only that small amount ignites instead of your horn/flask turning into a hand-grenade. As to granulation, that will vary depending on your gun, so try both FFg and FFFg if possible. Brand wise, I used to use Goex, then switched to Graf's because it was a little cheaper, and then found a local source that is even cheaper than Grafs, but I am not allowed to discuss it here as per the rules. All three of them have been equally accurate in my guns and I use FFFg in everything from .32s to a 13ga (.710") SxS. Powder charge will depend on what you're trying to do and what your rifle prefers, which I know sounds like a non-answer, but the usual recommendation is to start as 50grs for a .50" and go up from there in small increments. I have two .50s, and one loves 70grs, while the other prefers 75grs, but both are equally accurate. Many use a lighter charge for targets because you only need enough powder to push that ball through a piece of paper, so why waste it unless you need more for accuracy. Do what works for your needs, just make sure it is real BP, or a proper substitute if BP is unavailable, but NEVER use smokeless of any kind. Also, and this may be a bit much for right now, but I would strongly recommend it as soon as you feel comfortable, but get a mold from your favorite manufactures (whichever one that happens to be, and start casting your own ball. After all, the more of your components and gear you can make yourself, the more money you will have left over for the few things you can't make. In my case, that would be guns, and you always need another gun.

 

[bpd303]

That pretty much covers it. Just be sure to wear eye and hearing protection and have fun...be safe.

 

[BrownBear]

Didn't reread through all that to double-check, but there's one point worth (re)emphasizing:

When you start changing components looking for accuracy loads or solving problems, only change ONE thing at a time. Changing two or three at once will often lead you down blind alleys.

 

[Spikebuck]

At this point I have determined for starters that I will go with the .490 ball and .015 patch with 70 gr. of 2fg for target shooting.

I would love to hear from others on this as to whether my starting load would be good. I'm new to black powder rifles.

Based on above you are only "locked" into the ball size and patch thickness. You can experiment with load. Start at a lower charge, maybe 50 or 60 grs. Shoot five shots. Go up 5 or 10 grs...shoot five shots. Go up as high in charge as your gun is rated...I'd say at least to 90 grs. What produced your best 5-shot group? Is it repeatable?

I still have some questions though.

2fg vs. 3fg?

Could be either. I think 3F leaves less fouling, but for me it doesn't always produce the best group...but it might for you. It will probably produce very acceptable groups at some load, just like 2F would. I don't know how much you want to experiment. You might want to go to someplace like Powder Inc online and order 5 pounds of powder and mix it up between brands and 2F and 3F and see what you like best.

What kind of lube? I hear some use Crisco while I've also heard some use Hoppes #9 BP solvent for lube which some say eliminates swabbing.

You'll get many answers on that. I've tried a bunch of different greases, oils, etc. and I really like Dutch's Ballistol/Water mix system for "dry" patches...so to speak. The thing I like is that the patch does not feel wet or greasy, but when you short start the ball, you will see a little of the "trapped" oil come out...it's in there. It is also very consistent in amount of lube. It's a relatively cheap lube. You can pre-make a bunch of patches and they will "keep" for a long time, unlike Hoppes or other lubes that would evaporate completely.

What is a good black powder brand?

I have used Goex, KiK, and Swiss. I think Swiss is the cleanest, but it does cost more. My last buy was KiK and it's working just fine. A newer powder on the market is Goex's Old Ensford and I've read really good reviews on it.

Cap size? I presuming it's a #11 like most.

Is 70gr. too much for target shooting? Someone told me that 45gr is good.

I would guess #11, but don't know what nipple you have.

I think charge is something personal to you and what shoots best in your gun. Many find their guns to have two "Sweet spots"...a lower charge and a higher charge. Personally, my primary interest is hunting, so I do not vary my load because my goal is to know exactly what my gun is going to do with my hunting load...not just accuracy, but how it feels. I'm sure if I wasn't a hunter, I'd be shooting a lot less powder than I am when practicing.

What is a good way to measure and dispense powder? I'm kinda partial to having traditional flasks or horns but as a newbie should I use an old shell casing or modern form of powder measure for accuracy.

I think a measure that adjusts is best for the range as you can accurately measure out loads to experiment with. You cannot accurately do that with a "fixed" measure. Once I know what charge is best, I carry a fixed measure in the field matching the gun I'm carrying. How it's dispensed is your preference. With a spout you can dispense from the 1 pound container to the measure, but it might be handier to have either a brass flask or horn...and certainly you would want one of those in the field. Of course the primary safety rule is to never dispense directly from a container of powder into the bore...always use a measure.

Anyway I'm looking into getting a copy of "The Gunsmith of Grenville County" are their any other good titles out their on BP muzzle loaders?

The Gunsmith of Grenville County is a great book if you want to learn how to build rifles. But it only has a short chapter at the end about actually shooting them. If you are interested in material on how to load and shoot, I do recommend Dutch's papers as others have.

In addition, if you can find someone within reasonable distance of you that is really experienced, that will help you tremendously. I got into this 13 years ago and did not personally know anyone I could shoot with or learn from directly. This forum is a tremendous help, but last summer Makeumsmoke drove for several hours to my place and shot with me for a morning. That three hours really gave me an appreciation of what is possible in accuracy and I got some great tips. Plus Makeumsmoke was extremely generous by "donating" patching material, some different size RB's than what I had, and some different powder to try. I'm sure that if I'd have had someone like him many years ago to spend just a few hours with me I'd have been shooting 5-shot ragged holes a lot sooner. It was priceless.

Best of luck as you start making smoke!

 

[lighthorse]

Thank you everyone. Great information of which I'm going to write down in my notebook. There is a place nearby me that caters to SASS. They have period clothing, shooting supplies and firearms. They have been around for years and I visited them once years ago when I considered Civil War reenacting but found I could not justify the cost of reenacting.

I'm going to make a visit, probably make a purchase and talk to them. I'm sure they can hook me up to shooting events and info.

Thanks to all,
Jim

 

[Rifleman1776]

NMLRA used to sell a book called "For Beginners Only" that was excellent. I don't see it on the website anymore. Someone should republish or write a new one. Sure would save a lot of beginners a lot of confusion and get them off on the right foot.

 

[lighthorse]

I found a copy of "For beginners Only" for $7.00 on a used book store website and purchased it. It was the latest revision I could find being the 1976 13th edition. All others were mainly 1972 and a few older revisions.

I also purchased "The Black Powder Plainsman". Besides Muzzle loading info it also includes info on reenacting the Plainsman... something of which I'm considering doing.

Jim

 

[Zonie]

Although there is a bit of misinformation in some of the older books about shooting black powder most of them have quite a lot of useful information.

After all, shooting traditional black powder muzzleloaders hasn't changed for over 200 years so it's not like anyone is really missing out on some new ideas.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Although there is a bit of misinformation in some of the older books about shooting black powder most of them have quite a lot of useful information.

I've been enjoying some of the old books for years. Even some of the old company catalogs from the 50's & 60's are helpful. I've personally found some of the older methods more satisfying for shooting, loading, cleaning, etc. New methods and tools are great and I don't feel they're a threat to my sport. Some of the older authors like maj. George Nonte are fun to read, even if the works are a bit dated, I still enjoy the fore sights involved in the restarting of this sport half a century ago.

 

[nchawkeye]

The neat thing about these guns is they are very forgiving...I prefer FFF Goex as I can use it for both my main charge and my priming...This is used in both my .54 and my .40...

In my .54 I have played with charges from 40grs-120...In the .40 from 25grs-75grs...I use .530 and .390 balls that I cast myself...

I have used a bunch of different lubes and patching material, this is were the fun starts...For years I used SnoSeal for lube and it worked well, then I got curious and started trying different lubes and making my own...I'd say if you are having patches burn through then experiment with your patching and lube...

I would also work up a light load for targets and small game and another load (possibly a double charge) for large game...

I also have another load worked up with a thinner patch that works after I have shot 4-5 times with my tighter patch/ball combo...

Make sure to keep up with your shot patches as they can tell you a lot about your load combo...Take a tarp and spread it 10-15 paces in front of your muzzle to catch them, keep them in a plastic bag with the load info on them...

I prefer to buy my patching in bulk and lube patches as needed vs buying prelubed patches...This way you know how long they have been lubed...

I also like to cut a strip of patching about 12 inches long and start a ball and then pull it back out...This gives you and idea of the condition of the crown and how the ticking will hold up when loading...If it comes out cut, either the material isn't strong enough or the crown or rifling is cutting the patching...

 

[lighthorse]

I'd say if you are having patches burn through then experiment with your patching and lube...

Make sure to keep up with your shot patches as they can tell you a lot about your load combo...Take a tarp and spread it 10-15 paces in front of your muzzle to catch them, keep them in a plastic bag with the load info on them...

I didn't know that the patches survived to any extent after being fired. So essentially a patch should be pretty much intact after firing and any scorching or burning can be examined.

That's interesting. Well in addition to any books and information it seems just some practical range time will reveal a lot. I'll get there eventually.

Jim

 

[Zonie]

Fired patches are the first thing to examine after shooting a muzzleloader.

If everything is as it should be, the center area of the patch will look slightly discolored to a lightly browned color.
The area where the ball contacted the bore will show rifling marks but it won't be cut or burned in any way.

The area outside the contact circle will be somewhere between "almost unused" to badly tattered with loose threads hanging.
These loose threads is the result of a piece of cloth hitting a supersonic blast of wind.
As long as they are outside the contact area they are nothing to worry about.

If there are problems the area where the ball contacted the bore will be cut, torn, ripped or charred or all of these things together.

If the patch shows any of this cutting, ripping, charring the accuracy of the load will be poor. Some have mentioned anything from "open groups" to "shotgun patterns" when describing what a damaged patch will cause.

 

[bpd303]

Two examples a "blown" patch on the left and good one on the right. Same patch material & lube.

 

[lighthorse]

I really do appreciate the time so many of you here on the forum have taken to help me understand the basics of muzzle loading. I should have got into this along time ago. :hatsoff:

Thanks to bpd303 for that great picture of what the patches should and shouldn't look like. That helps greatly. :thumbsup:

Although I have yet to get all my stuff together to start makin' smoke. I really get a sense that there is a greater connection between the rifle and shooter with traditional black powder muzzle loaders than with the modern cartridge rifles. So the word "Rifleman" rings more true. Sorry if that sound sappy.

Although muzzleloaders are simpler long arms, there is more thought behind loading and firing. I like this very much and I find I like the traditions behind BP long arms.

I have enjoyed learning from y'all and hope to continue learning. So far this is far more enjoyable than more modern firearms... not knocking those because I have them and will still keep some but I kinda feel my 34 year interest in bolt actions and semi-autos waning considerably.

Jim

 

[Lonegun1894]

Here is what I was always told. The day you quit learning, is the day you're finished. I still have my suppository guns, but use my MLs for most hunting. I definitely wouldn't give up your moderns, but rather just use the ML as a different, yet related, field of study and enjoyment.