Guest
Finally, someone tells it like it is. :bow:necchi said:
Ghillie Shoes
- Thread starter NeilMacleod
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
nwtradegun
50 Cal.
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2011
- Messages
- 1,496
- Reaction score
- 17
where can you buy REAL gillie shoes for men. not these fancy modern junk.
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2013
- Messages
- 20,091
- Reaction score
- 1,025
Yep!...Best answer(s).... :thumbsup: :hatsoff:Jack Wilson said:
- Joined
- May 6, 2014
- Messages
- 17,477
- Reaction score
- 16,562
Rattlesnakes were a HUGE problem in the 18th century and even in areas we would not think of them today and later than we might think as well.
"Amongst all British regiments which served in America during the War for Independence, the 62nd Regiment had a unique, documented uniform modification made to the bayonet scabbards by some of its men on campaign, thanks to the general order dated Ticonderoga, New York, 6 July 1777: “The 62d Regiment to take possession of Mount Independence; the Regiment Prince Frederick to take possession of Ticonderoga; Brigadier General Hamilton to command the two regiments.” Before the name was changed to “Mount Independence” by the rebels in 1776, this 300 foot peninsular height overlooking the Lake Champlain Valley was known as “Rattlesnake Hill,” and with good reason: the place was famous for its overabundance of timber rattlesnakes. The European soldiers of Burgoyne's army were both terrified and fascinated with the snakes””especially rattlesnakes””found in America, and there is no end of correspondence by the officers upon the subject. This fascination took an unexpected turn with the soldiers of the 62nd Regiment, as expressed by Lieutenant James Green (26th Regiment), who had been sergeant-major of the 62nd Regiment in 1777, in a letter to his friend Mr. Bainton written on 26 January 1781:
With respect to the wild Animals of America, I never saw any except a Fox now and then. The Snakes indeed are terrible and numerous. I have killed several with my own hands. I have seen Rattle Snakes Seven feet long. They were in such plenty near Ticonderoga that the Men used to cover their bayonet Scabbards with the Skins.
Green was alluding to the fact that the 62nd Regiment, as a whole or in part, garrisoned Rattlesnake Hill from 6 July though 12 August 1777 before being ordered to rejoin Burgoyne's main army. The men no doubt served the rest of the campaign with their timber rattlesnake skin covered bayonet scabbards."
No doubt the Scots in GA learned ways to kill and get around the snakes as did the NA's before them. Maybe with loose and thick wool leggings as both NA's and other Colonists learned to do? I wondered if anyone thought about using thick half cured hides to make snake proof leggings?
A sure way to get rid of snakes was to allow one's pigs to roam free and eat the rattlesnakes and other venomous snakes. I recall that being down here in VA.
Gus
"Amongst all British regiments which served in America during the War for Independence, the 62nd Regiment had a unique, documented uniform modification made to the bayonet scabbards by some of its men on campaign, thanks to the general order dated Ticonderoga, New York, 6 July 1777: “The 62d Regiment to take possession of Mount Independence; the Regiment Prince Frederick to take possession of Ticonderoga; Brigadier General Hamilton to command the two regiments.” Before the name was changed to “Mount Independence” by the rebels in 1776, this 300 foot peninsular height overlooking the Lake Champlain Valley was known as “Rattlesnake Hill,” and with good reason: the place was famous for its overabundance of timber rattlesnakes. The European soldiers of Burgoyne's army were both terrified and fascinated with the snakes””especially rattlesnakes””found in America, and there is no end of correspondence by the officers upon the subject. This fascination took an unexpected turn with the soldiers of the 62nd Regiment, as expressed by Lieutenant James Green (26th Regiment), who had been sergeant-major of the 62nd Regiment in 1777, in a letter to his friend Mr. Bainton written on 26 January 1781:
With respect to the wild Animals of America, I never saw any except a Fox now and then. The Snakes indeed are terrible and numerous. I have killed several with my own hands. I have seen Rattle Snakes Seven feet long. They were in such plenty near Ticonderoga that the Men used to cover their bayonet Scabbards with the Skins.
Green was alluding to the fact that the 62nd Regiment, as a whole or in part, garrisoned Rattlesnake Hill from 6 July though 12 August 1777 before being ordered to rejoin Burgoyne's main army. The men no doubt served the rest of the campaign with their timber rattlesnake skin covered bayonet scabbards."
No doubt the Scots in GA learned ways to kill and get around the snakes as did the NA's before them. Maybe with loose and thick wool leggings as both NA's and other Colonists learned to do? I wondered if anyone thought about using thick half cured hides to make snake proof leggings?
A sure way to get rid of snakes was to allow one's pigs to roam free and eat the rattlesnakes and other venomous snakes. I recall that being down here in VA.
Gus
necchi said:
???? What is your historical justification for that statement? Seems to me that the Scots and Scotch-Irish in this Country are the ones who shot and run off the other people (NDNs). :grin:
Richard/Grumpa
- Joined
- May 6, 2014
- Messages
- 17,477
- Reaction score
- 16,562
tenngun said:
Even though I have done a Highlander Private Soldier in both the FIW and AWI time periods, a pair of brogan tionndaidh would not be correct for either impression, as long as my "Issued English Shoes" were not worn out and replacements were not available. Then I might be forced to make myself a pair. However, that would be a tough case to make and if I could back it up with historic precedence, it most likely would have only been in a very urgent or emergency measure.
However, going back to Hamas and considering we are talking about a settlement of gaelic speaking Highland Scots, Hamas probably made brogan tionndaidh for his children as they were growing up. Or if he did not have children, perhaps he made them for his nieces and nephews. So we have a second generation who wore them and probably learned to make them. Even if no one taught them how to make them, it was not a difficult shoe to figure out how to make. I would not be surprised if their offspring wore them as children, unless their families had made their fortunes by this time and had all gone over to wearing English Shoes. So it is not unreasonable at all to figure that at least two, if not three generations knew of the brogan tionndaidh and had worn them some time in their lives. After that, it would begun to have been less likely from there on - unless their offspring continued to push westward on the frontier and continued to need a cheap and easily constructed foot wear. Then who knows how long they would have continued?
Gus
Gus, thanks for the post on the British and our rattlesnakes.
That too is a solid point. The 'put theee cuts in a pie crust,one to let the steam out and two because mama did it that way' thing. We can think about L&C, they made Mocs after shoes wore out. They were in the west, but I would bet they made center seams or pucker toes and not side seams.
As to the above that it would not be welcomed at an event,I don't think that's true. I have seen them and would not think twice if I saw it again. I don't think any event that let Duers in or crazy crow Canadian made Mocs in could say anything about them.
Shoes and boots went to rendezvous and to Santa Fe, most towns got a public house,a cooper,blacksmith and a shoe maker as the earliest business. Yet Mocs, Taos shoes, sabots de bouffe, remained common.
I don't think I will make any, but I wouldn't get my breechclot in a wad at seeing them. I would THINK they would be rare, but I can't rule them out for sure well up to WTBS.
As to the above that it would not be welcomed at an event,I don't think that's true. I have seen them and would not think twice if I saw it again. I don't think any event that let Duers in or crazy crow Canadian made Mocs in could say anything about them.
Shoes and boots went to rendezvous and to Santa Fe, most towns got a public house,a cooper,blacksmith and a shoe maker as the earliest business. Yet Mocs, Taos shoes, sabots de bouffe, remained common.
I don't think I will make any, but I wouldn't get my breechclot in a wad at seeing them. I would THINK they would be rare, but I can't rule them out for sure well up to WTBS.
And have no fears,this grey beard fat guy doesn't wear a breech clot any more, its trouser for me :haha:
- Joined
- May 6, 2014
- Messages
- 17,477
- Reaction score
- 16,562
Spence10 said:
Unless I mistook what Tenngun wrote earlier, Hamas is a fictionalized person representing one of the Scottish Highland settlers who Governor Oglethorpe brought to Georgia to act as militia soldiers and his story is speculation, but based on solid facts of the time and of the culture.
The rest of the information, including the fact they were Gaelic Scot speakers and Oglethorpe imported a great deal of Tartan cloth in at least two kinds to uniform them in Great Kilts, is all a matter of public record. So indeed there were Highland Scots who wore Great Kilts, Hose, and at least some basket hilt swords, etc. here in the Colonies as civilians. A special unit of Militia to be sure and perhaps the first case of what would later be called "Provincial Militia."
The only other case I know of where some Highland Scottish Immigrants wore Tartan and fought with Broadswords was at the Battle of Moore's Creek Bridge in NC during the early days of the AWI.
Gus
P.S. Not sure if this is clear to others, but the Scottish Immigrants Oglethorpe talked into coming to GA, came with their families and children directly from the Highlands of Scotland.
- Joined
- May 6, 2014
- Messages
- 17,477
- Reaction score
- 16,562
BillinOregon said:
Thought you might like that. You are most welcome.
Have to say I never would have thought THAT MANY rattlesnakes would have been in New York in that time period and was very surprised the first time I read it.
OK, sorry about going OT and back to the OP's subject.
Gus
I understood Hamas was a representative character. My question is whether there is any actual documentation that the scenario you describe with the shoes took place, or if it is just a logical assumption.
One would think that Scots immigrants would wear their traditional bonnets when they first arrived. It is a reasonable, logical assumption, but I never knew if it were true until I found a reference of it actually happening in 1822, as described by a person who was there. Is there such a reference to the ghillie shoes?
Spence
One would think that Scots immigrants would wear their traditional bonnets when they first arrived. It is a reasonable, logical assumption, but I never knew if it were true until I found a reference of it actually happening in 1822, as described by a person who was there. Is there such a reference to the ghillie shoes?
Spence
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2013
- Messages
- 20,091
- Reaction score
- 1,025
If I went to an event and there was one Scottish Highlander there, They would most likely be "statistically" over represented in a historical context.
Figured I'd ruffle some feathers with that.Grumpa said:
The topic is about foot coverings in the Craftsmen s section.
It's not a far stretch of the imagination that those skilled Scottish mercenaries didn't wear "gillie shoes" as they are appointed in this thread to preform the tasks they had before them.
It's not even worth debating with folks to understand that the "shoes/moc's/gillies/whatever they are(?),, are not proper representation of someone with the mixed deference of it found here.
Perhaps, some despondent refuge of a once proud Scots mercenary would have to cover his feet with something as he begged in the streets,,
But there is no way the foot coverings shown here would have been used by an elitist soldier in the Americas.
If it was we'd all,, already know it and be using them.
Sorry again,, Gillie shoes don't cut it.
- Joined
- May 6, 2014
- Messages
- 17,477
- Reaction score
- 16,562
Spence,
First of all, I cannot document the “Iron Age” shoe pattern (as it is called in the OP’s photo gallery) that the OP used to make the foot wear shown at the beginning of this thread - as having been worn here in the Colonies. Please don’t take this as meaning it is HCPC correct or not, it is just that I personally cannot document it.
Now, as to your question of “is whether there is any actual documentation that the scenario you describe with the shoes took place, or if it is just a logical assumption?”
The type of Highland footwear I believe many wore was known as brogan tionndaidh in Scot's Gaelic. This is, I'm pretty sure, the correct name for the type of foot wear both you and I documented in previous posts as being worn in Scotland at the time.
For the immediate present, this is going to have to be a logical assumption as I have not yet been able to document the source of the documentation on the “Brogs” that at least some to many of the Highlanders wore. I think I have it narrowed down to no more than three sources. The problem is that the best link for the documentation had the sources cited the last time we discussed these Highlanders at Darien a couple years ago, but those source links no longer work. So I have to try some different directions.
Gus
First of all, I cannot document the “Iron Age” shoe pattern (as it is called in the OP’s photo gallery) that the OP used to make the foot wear shown at the beginning of this thread - as having been worn here in the Colonies. Please don’t take this as meaning it is HCPC correct or not, it is just that I personally cannot document it.
Now, as to your question of “is whether there is any actual documentation that the scenario you describe with the shoes took place, or if it is just a logical assumption?”
The type of Highland footwear I believe many wore was known as brogan tionndaidh in Scot's Gaelic. This is, I'm pretty sure, the correct name for the type of foot wear both you and I documented in previous posts as being worn in Scotland at the time.
For the immediate present, this is going to have to be a logical assumption as I have not yet been able to document the source of the documentation on the “Brogs” that at least some to many of the Highlanders wore. I think I have it narrowed down to no more than three sources. The problem is that the best link for the documentation had the sources cited the last time we discussed these Highlanders at Darien a couple years ago, but those source links no longer work. So I have to try some different directions.
Gus
- Joined
- May 6, 2014
- Messages
- 17,477
- Reaction score
- 16,562
John,
I am not sure where you got the idea the Highland Scots who settled in early Georgia were "elitist Soldiers" or "mercenaries," the latter except for a very general definition of the word "mercenary." While it is true that some of the Highlanders had military experience and/or training and the average Highland Scot had more training "at arms" than the indigenous poor of London, who Oglethorpe also intended for Georgia and some of those were brought there, the Highlanders were more settlers who could fight when needed - than mercenaries. IOW, some of them were much more similar to "Provincial Militia" in the next two/three decades in other colonies.
When one looks at the occupations of the Highlanders; many are listed as laborers, servants, farmers, cowherds, wood cutters and even a couple of tailors and one baker. Now it is true that some of the poorest turned to being full time in one of the Independent Companies (similar to later Provincial Militia's), after their indentured servant contracts expired, most of the Highlanders were regularly employed at other things and took up arms when needed.
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/america/darien.htm
Gus
Edited to add: Another way we moderns might understand the Highlander Scottish immigrants would be they were similar to modern day National Guard and Reserves.
I am not sure where you got the idea the Highland Scots who settled in early Georgia were "elitist Soldiers" or "mercenaries," the latter except for a very general definition of the word "mercenary." While it is true that some of the Highlanders had military experience and/or training and the average Highland Scot had more training "at arms" than the indigenous poor of London, who Oglethorpe also intended for Georgia and some of those were brought there, the Highlanders were more settlers who could fight when needed - than mercenaries. IOW, some of them were much more similar to "Provincial Militia" in the next two/three decades in other colonies.
When one looks at the occupations of the Highlanders; many are listed as laborers, servants, farmers, cowherds, wood cutters and even a couple of tailors and one baker. Now it is true that some of the poorest turned to being full time in one of the Independent Companies (similar to later Provincial Militia's), after their indentured servant contracts expired, most of the Highlanders were regularly employed at other things and took up arms when needed.
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/america/darien.htm
Gus
Edited to add: Another way we moderns might understand the Highlander Scottish immigrants would be they were similar to modern day National Guard and Reserves.
Last edited by a moderator:
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2004
- Messages
- 14,767
- Reaction score
- 320
I have an interesting- and I think practical- reaction.
Traditional in Scotland or not, once a guy got here and saw the simple mocs in local use, why in the world would he go to the trouble of building his old style?
The L&C journals have more "shoe" talk than any other source I know of. Mostly because those guys went through them like politicians go through promises.
If I was an immigrant Scot, would I continue making the old style as mine quickly wore out, or adopt the local? I bet the gillie shoes I wore climbing off the boat would be the last I owned.
Traditional in Scotland or not, once a guy got here and saw the simple mocs in local use, why in the world would he go to the trouble of building his old style?
The L&C journals have more "shoe" talk than any other source I know of. Mostly because those guys went through them like politicians go through promises.
If I was an immigrant Scot, would I continue making the old style as mine quickly wore out, or adopt the local? I bet the gillie shoes I wore climbing off the boat would be the last I owned.
- Joined
- May 6, 2014
- Messages
- 17,477
- Reaction score
- 16,562
Brown Bear,
Brogan tionndaidh, or loosely translated from Scots Gaelic to English as "turned shoes" (one piece of leather the person stood his/foot on and turned up the edges to tie them) were as simple or even more simple than NA center seam moccasins. Some had no sewing at all and the leather was just punched for a draw string piece of leather around the top that formed a kind of slipper. Another kind just had a seam in the rear with the draw string leather along the top edge.
The better question in my mind was why would they have gone to a new type of shoe or moc when they already knew how to make and could easily make their traditional footwear?
Gus
Brogan tionndaidh, or loosely translated from Scots Gaelic to English as "turned shoes" (one piece of leather the person stood his/foot on and turned up the edges to tie them) were as simple or even more simple than NA center seam moccasins. Some had no sewing at all and the leather was just punched for a draw string piece of leather around the top that formed a kind of slipper. Another kind just had a seam in the rear with the draw string leather along the top edge.
The better question in my mind was why would they have gone to a new type of shoe or moc when they already knew how to make and could easily make their traditional footwear?
Gus
- Joined
- May 6, 2014
- Messages
- 17,477
- Reaction score
- 16,562
OK, going OT a bit. The one thing I don't understand in GA during this period and while wearing the kilt, was what they did to repel mosquito's? I've heard pine oil might repel them, but I'm not sure about that.
From personal experience at wearing a Philabeg (little kilt) "authentically" at Colonial Williamsburg in late spring/early summer, I QUICKLY found I needed "bug juice" to "repel boarders" in certain private areas. :haha: At other times of the year or at other places in Virginia, though, I did not need bug repellent.
Gus
From personal experience at wearing a Philabeg (little kilt) "authentically" at Colonial Williamsburg in late spring/early summer, I QUICKLY found I needed "bug juice" to "repel boarders" in certain private areas. :haha: At other times of the year or at other places in Virginia, though, I did not need bug repellent.
Gus
Similar threads
- Locked
