Glass bedding. Something an amature can do?

[Ironwood]

I have a TC Pennsylvania Hunter that's giving me fits. I'm concerned it might be due to the barrel bedding. I'm thinking about glass bedding the barrel. Is there anything I should be especially concerned about doing, are not doing? I've never attempted anything like this before. If I screw it up how hard is it going to be to correct my screw up? What bedding compound should I use, Acraglas?

Thanks for any help,
Gene

 

[Birddog6]

IMHO, if you are having shooting problems with the rifle, I would correct that before I bedded it as you may bed the problem right in.

Can we address the problem incurred & possibly we can help with that first ?

Also, bedding is not hard, but it is crucial it is done properly or you may never get the barrel out again. An easy way to think of it is as a "V", with your barrel channel & etc. all being shaped like a V. You can lift out of a V but not out of a "I", as you are locked in the bottom. Same way with bedding a barrel. You need all holes filled, no lips, no rough edges, dovetails filled, holes plugged & if a taper on things is possible, you need the smallest part of the tapers on the bottom. A simple bolt hole or underlug slot can really tie one up & you may not get it loose, especially if it locks a a place you cannot drill to.
Also the preparation of same is important. This stuff is an epoxy or fiberglass resin & it BONDS. Too dang good at times. So it is imperative you have a good thin coat of release agent of your choice to insure it will release. Years ago I stuck a barrel in a stock for a week because I forgot to plug the hole going thru the base of the tang.... just overlooked it & I mean that baby was really stuck. Finially it hit me & I drilled it out & it released.
I also have seen several forestocks split from guys trying to get them out of bedding & they missed a place with the release compound.

Hard to do ? No. But ya have to have ALL of your ducks in a row when ya do it.

:results:

 

[jmckenney]

Provided all of the holes in the wood and barrel are plugged with something like modeling clay. Make sure the barrel is slick smooth without any machine marks and the tang screw and lock bolts and threaded holes are all coated with the release agent(2 coats) everything should come apart with a little effort, not much just some light thumps with a rubber/plastic mallet. A little trick if it won't seperate easily-put it in the freezer over night, the metal will contract more than the wood. If all else fails and the bugger is stuck for sure, apply a little heat to the barrel. Won't take much heat and you may ruin the bedding but then you can start all over again. I always liked to use micro-bed for muzzle loaders.
Another consideration-if you get any bedding compound on finished wood or the stock is ready for staining, put masking tape on the exposed wood everywhere the bedding compound can possibly flow. If you don't the finish will come off during the clean up, if the wood is bare and you get bedding in the pores the stock will not take stain-shoddy job will be the outcome.

 

[oldarmy]

You can glass bed.
The brownell kits are great and really fool proof. I am living proof of that.
I have bedded at least a half a dozen rifles. Just follow the directions and you can't go wrong.
The stuff doen't set up instantly so there is time to adjust and move it where you want.
Althought it's always a thrill to have the action break out of the stock after sitting overnight.

 

[jh45gun]

A Tip I have heard on glass bedding if you are nervous using the release agent and worried about your barrel geting stuck some folks tape saran wrap (any plastic wrap) on their barrels and use that as a release agent. The barrel is isolated from the epoxy and comes right out yet if you put the wrap on right so it is tight and no wrinkles ect it is thin enough to still do a good job. I have never tried it as I just use a good amount of the release agent on what ever I glass bed. I glassbedded the barrel channels on both my underhammers and had nary a problem. I have heard if it does not release to get it good and cold (Freezer) and then give it a rap to loosen the barrel. I have never had to resort to that they always come out for me. Just follow the directions and use modeling clay to fill any holes ect and you will be fine. Jim

 

[roundball]

I have a TC Pennsylvania Hunter that's giving me fits. I'm concerned it might be due to the barrel bedding.

Gene, first, I'm no authority...but I don't think those big ole heavy TC ML barrels are much bothered by things like stocks and bedding, etc...if it's not consistent, I would look to the inside...the bore, the load combinations, etc.
Also, don't overlook the fact that the barrel itself may have a structural problem.

I had one .50cal Hawken round ball barrel who's POI began walking left as it heated up...so bad that there wasn't enbough rear sight adjustment to compensate and it printed at 9 oclock, 3" left of center at 50yds, with the rear sight maxed out to the right.

Let it cool down, and it would then print way over to the right...groups were excellent, it's just that heat affected the internal structure of the barrel's metal, made it torque or something...and as it heated back up it would walk right back over to 9 oclock.

Sent it to TC, they checked it on a "laser" alignment machine, said it was within specs, but they obviously didn't shoot a couple dozen shots through it because when I got it back it did exactly the same thing.

So they replaced it and the replacement is probably the most accurate barrel I've ever owned...same Hawken stock and everything[url] else...in[/url] fact, the replacement barrel is so true, it's the only one I have that has the rear sight windage adjustment still perfectly dead centered like it came from the factory.

(I think this barrel would be the one to have a fixed primitive sight on as it requires no windage adjustment)

:m2c:

 

[shmrck1]

Ironwood,
I don't know what your intentions are, and
could be wrong ( would not be the first time) but
somewhere in the back of my mind i think I read that
glass bedded rifles are not permitted in NMLRA sanctioned
shooting events. If i am wrong i'm sure someone will
let us know. :m2c:
snake-eyes

 

[Wedge]

I have never used a glass bedding compound here in Aust. It's not that it wasn't available but I had access to what I concidered a superior product. This bedding compound is called "Arma Grout" or "Armour Grout". Not sure of the spelling. It is a specific epoxy grout for bedding rifles and excelled in bedding high power center fire firearms. It is an immensely hard and strong material when cured. It has a VERY low shrinkage and can be used as thin as 1/32" or as thick as 1/4" or more. It can absorb heavy recoil and is extremely stable. It is very easy to use and will form razor thin and razor sharp "feathered" sections if made that way. You can bed an action or bed a barrel or the whole lot, no probs, my favorite stuff to use.
Wedge
:m2c: :imo: :thumbsup:

 

[jh45gun]

Sounds to me that is a product like the thick type glass bedding that accra glass puts out in the green box. Same concept. I prefer that over regular accra glass as it stays put where you put it. Jim

 

[Ironwood]

Thanks everyone for the great info!!

Snake eyes.. I doubt I'll ever shoot the rifle in any kind of competition. I just want to be able to hunt with it. Would like to be able to get about 1-1/2" 3 shot group off the bench at 50 yards.

I first mentioned this rifle in the Percussion forum. The first time I took it out there was some bad horizontal stringing. I noticed the wedge pin seemed loose and I could feel the barrel move ever so slightly. As suggested in that thread I bent the wedge pin a tiny bit. It was then very tight. At the range with the tight wedge pin the first two shots were about 1" apart. Everything went south from there. 12 or 14 inch group! Each shot got a little worse and that was with a scope on the rifle.

Back at home I straightened the wedge pin out. Put a very thin calling card under the barrel in front of the wedge pin and one behind the wedge pin. I didn't have much time for shooting this morning. I really went to the range to take photos of the rimfire competition the club was having. This mornings result wasn't as bad as with the bent pin, but not really encouraging either.

I've been told it takes at least a couple hundered rounds before a rifle shoots it's best. So I'm not giving up on the rifle. It just seems the barrel channel is part of the accuracy problem. That's why I was thinking of glass bedding the barrel.

Gene H

 

[Erzulis boat]

The spray form of release agent from Brownells works beyond perfect every time. The brush on agent relies on your application techniques too much. There is a book called the M14 Owners Guide by Duff that can be purchased through Brownells that goes into great detail about glass bedding. It is wise to learn about using modeling clay barrier techniques, as you can precisely control the epoxy compound.
The purist may curse me, but I bed all my stuff. You will never see it, but it is there.

 

[Birddog6]

From what I am seeing of your target, you don't need glass bedding, you need a load for that rifle. You need to glas bed one when you shoot one day & it shoots dead on, go out the next day & it is 2" out, then next day 2" the other way, etc. But you need a load for the rifle first & you target indicates you don't have it OR you are shooting off hand & don't know if you have a load or not possibly. I have had Many a rifle brought to me shooting all over the place only to find out sand bagged the rifle was on, not a rifle problem but a shooter problem. In fact, had that happen last year on a deer rifle I built a guy. Shooting dead on when he left here. Cae back 3 times complaining the rifle shoot off. all 3 times we benched the rifle & it is dead onn. I shot it offhand at fifty yards & shot a 3" group with it & he is shooting a 8" group with it. not a rifle problem, human error. After 3 sessions here he was doen to a 4" group if he only shot it about 9 times, then he got tired & was all over the place. Biggest problem was he was jerking the trigger, etc.

But anyway, none of this may apply to you, just giving info out & possibilities......... If you are SURE this is a accurate load for the rifle OK. If not, I suggest the following......

1: First of all, I suggest using sand bags & bench rest the rifle. Get the rifle to shoot & eliminate the shooter human error first. Shoot 25 yards & you are looking for a group that cuts 3 or at least 3 in a group measuring 1" C to C. If the group is larger than that it is no use pursueing it, as it will definately be big at 50 yards of further.

2: Get some 3F Goex to shoot in it, some Lehigh Lube or Bore Butter, some .015, .017, & .020 pillow ticking, some .490 & .495 balls. If you want to try some of my lube send me a email & I will send you a sample of it & possibly it will help you get a start & handle on a good load.

3: Start at 60 grains of FFF with a patch & shoot 3 shots at one bull & the smallest bull you can see at 25 yards. Don't worry if you hit the bull as actually you don't want to as it distorts the sight picture you started with. Then shoot 3 more at another target, then the third target. Clip the targets together & write ALL of the data. Ball size, charge, powder, patch thickness, lube, etc.

4: Now go to 65 grains & do it all over. Then 75. grains & that all over.

5: Now go to the thicker patch, run the same saga all over from the beginning.

6: Now a dif patch, same saga all over. BE SURE to keep the 3 target groups togeter & write the data down so you don't duplicate & can keep track of it. Otherwise you will be backtracking & get it all confused..

7: When you have tried all 3 loads, all three patches & are done you should have over 80 shots in that rifle with those 3 dif. patches 3 dif charges & That lube. Now start all over with a dif lube & go thru the same saga all over again..

8: Get thru that THEN start ALL over again only use a 495 ball. shoot 3 groops, then change charges, etc.

9: When you have tried them all, then look at all the targets & see what ones did the best.

10: Now take the best three & do them all over & work on the best one from there. Now go to 50 yards & see how it holds.

This takes allot of time & the accuracy of the rifle will be dependant of how particular you are loading, swabbing, data kept, etc.

Sometimes I go out there with a rifle I just built & hit a close load right off the bat. Sometimes it takes several weeks of load work & combos to find the very best one it will do. Sometimes it goes good & sometimes it can be quite flustrating. Usually when it goes bad it is ME making errors or not doing something right, not the rifle.

:results:

 

[Pittsburghunter]

Birddog may be on to something try changing the powder to FFF Goex same weight. Do you ever collect your patches? 777 will burn the heck out of mine.

 

[BLAHMAN]

You told us some interesting stuff, what do the patches look like?

Why not try black powder?

Is that a used gun? Is it new outa the box?

 

[Ironwood]

I'm shooting off sandbags from a very solid bench. We have target holders at 25, 50, and 100 yards. Early in the morning I'm shooting into the sun, but I don't have any trouble keeping 3 shots within 1-1/2" C-C with my CVA St Louis Hawken.

In the photo below: I was shooting 85 grains of Goex FFG with TC patches lubed with Mama Flinters Moose Milk. I actually sort of got a group. I had put a calling card under the barrel in front of the wedge pin and one behind the wedge pin. The wedge pin was straight. I bought the rifle at a gun show. The gun didn't show any signs of ever being fired.

In the photo below: I had run some 0000 steel wool down the bore a few times. Bought some .020" Canvas from Wal-Mart and cut some patches. I was still using 85 grains of Goex FFG and Moose Milk patch lube. Oh yes... the roundballs were cast from a Lee mold, are .490", weigh 177 grains, and of pure lead. I had re-bent the wedge pin ever so slightly, and removed the calling cards

The photo below: This is a typical 3 shot group from my CVA St Louis Hawken with the same set up except pillow ticking patches.

Note to the moderator: If this thread is taking up to much room please feel free to delete any portion or all of it.

 

[Zonie]

I think there is enough good information dealing with glass bedding in this post to keep it here.
It did seem to turn into a post dealing with shooting but accurate shooting is what some people are trying to obtain when they start thinking of glass bedding their gun.

I personally think glass bedding can help around the breech area of the barrel if the barrel was loosly inletted into the wood, but I think the loose fit of a that little skinny piece of wood on a fullstock rifle, out beyond 12 inches from the breech will have little or no effect on a heavy barreled muzzleloaders accuracy.
I say this because most of the modern rifles have little skinny barrels nestled in a big chunk of wood (or plastic). In those guns I can see where the stock could bend or deflect the barel. That is just about exactly the opposite of a muzzleloader with a full stock.