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Going Supersonic

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My question/observation is in regard to .62 smoothbore shooting round ball. Lets assume a 42 inch barrel. Also assume we are shooting at a target 50 yards away.

I have often read posts where people say "you have to overcome the knuckleball effect" and other posts saying they had to get up into the 80 grains or more loads before they started getting their best groups (with smoothbore).

I know that jets go through a lot of turbulance and vibration as they are approaching the speed of sound until they have gotten up past the speed of sound. I would guess that a round ball has a similar experience just around that speed (1,100 fps) and could be moved slightly off course if it spends time in that speed range.

So here's the question... how much powder is the minimum required to ensure that your .62 round ball starts off well abover supersonic, and just as importantly, stays above supersonic as it passes the 50 yard mark? Has anyone chronographed their loads out at 50 yards? What does 60, 70, 80, or 90 grains (either FFG or FFFG) give you for 50 yard velocities?

My thought is that maybe the load that finally maintains supersonic all the way to the target is the point where groups tighten. Just food for thought.
 
One way to find this for your gun is start at about 1/2 the caliber in grains of your favorite powder, about 30 grains. Load that up and shoot a couple and listen without earplugs; it''l probably make a "foop" sort of sound. Add 5 grains and shoot again, it'll get a little louder. Keep adding 5 grains till it makes a distinct "crack" with the report; that'll be the speed of sound at your altitude. You cannot hear this with ear plugs in unfortunately. Add 5 or 10 grains more and tweak that for the most accurate.

That turbulence you referred to makes the ball slow more rapidly above SoS. Just made up numbers... but lessay you shoot at 1050 fps and the ball arrives at 50 yards going 900 fps; shooting at 1350 fps the ball will arrive at 50 yds going 1100 fps, very disproportionate slowing with increase in velocity. Without a chronograph it's all just guessing.

The initial procedure will get you to about 1200 fps, you may as well shoot for accuracy as you shoot those steps, you may find an accurate load that is barely supersonic... or not.
 
I agree with Riflman. Besisdes, because of the aerodynamics of a round ball, it wont stay supersonic very long.
 
My 38" smooth bore 20 ga. with a patched .595 ball weighing 320 grns. chronographed over 1200fps with 70 grains of 3F Goex about 10' in front of the muzzle. Don't know what the speed is at 50 yds. Just FYI--anyone else actually chrono their smoothbores?
 
cgg said:
My 38" smooth bore 20 ga. with a patched .595 ball weighing 320 grns. chronographed over 1200fps with 70 grains of 3F Goex about 10' in front of the muzzle. Don't know what the speed is at 50 yds. Just FYI--anyone else actually chrono their smoothbores?

I think that is the info he was looking for. Having a chrono is helpful. Actually, I never woulda thunk it with that charge. Thanks.
 
have chronographed my 20 ga. smoothbore, but at velocities UNDER the SOS. I don't want to try to send a RB over the speed of sound(SOS) because it can't sustain that velocity, like a modern bullet can, and when it comes down through the transonic zone, all kinds of nasty thing occur that open up group sizes, regardless of distance.

Recoil becomes substantial when you go much above 110 grains( 4 drams). If your gun has a rifle stock with a half-moon buttplate, designed to be shot off the upper arm, instead of the pocket in your shoulder, below the collar bone, its going to begin hurting a lot quicker, and well before you get your powder charge up to 110 grains.

Finally, if you do any penetration testing, you will find that that huge RB in a 20 gauge barrel( .62 cal.) does NOT NEED to be going the SOS much less above the SOS to fully penetrate the animals you are likely to hunt, and shoot, using iron sights. We are talking generally under 150 yds, because of the rapid drop of the LB as it runs out of steam. The faster you send the ball out the barrel, the faster it slows- which has already been explained to you. Inside these distances, any .62 caliber rifle is a very powerful firearm, and capable to taking down any animal on the N. American Continent. :thumbsup:
 
When I did load development for a PRB deer load in my new 38" Rice .62cal smoothbore a year ago, I experimented with 10grn increments of Goex 3F and 2F powder charges at 50yds.
I used cast .600" balls and Oxyoke .022" precut/prelubed patches. 2F seemed to give an eyelash better group than 3F, so I went with 2F.
Stepping up through 80/90/100/110/120grns of 2F, groups got consistently better until I tried 110grns, then the 'sound' of the shots took on a distinctive "crack" sound, and the group size got noticeably smaller.

Tried 120grns, same crack but no better accuracy...dropped back to 100grns, got the normal 'boom' sound, and the groups eased back open a bit. Back to 110grns and the crack sound returned, groups tightend back up, etc. Not being a scientist I don't "know" what's actually happening, but spending a lot of time shooting at the range, I do know what actually worked best as a deer load in my 38" Rice barrel .62cal smoothbore:
110grns Goex 2F
.022" Oxyoke precut/prelubed patch
.600" commercial cast ball (Eddie May, Georgia)

I haven't chronographed it yet...will eventually run all my longer barreled long rifles through my chronogrph and document them just for the exercise of doing so, but won't be changing a thing based on what that might show...the targets tell me what loads I want to use and results in the field support the choices.
As an aside, felt recoil from that load in a huge .620" bore is no different than 100grns 2F in my 38" Rice .58cal rifle...nothing out of the ordinary....they're only about two-thirds of the way up the published load data charts.
 
Oh, a 38" .62 caliber barrel can efficiently burn 131 grains of powder. A 42"barrel in the same caliber can efficiently burn 146 grains of powder.

I would NOT volunteer to be behind the butt of that gun firing such loads. I once fired 6 drams of powder( 165 grains) out of an 8 gauge( .835" bore) smoothbore shotgun, pushing 4 oz. of shot. That was enough GEE-WHIZ/ HELLO for me, thank you.

BTW, my 30"- barreled 20 ga. fowler can efficiently burn 105 grains of powder, but I prefer to keep those charges down under 80 grains. Its still basically a 50-70 yd. deer gun,and more velocity simply is NOT needed for that purpose. A friend shot a Wild Boar( russian) using a .62 cal. gun with a frontal chest shot from about 20 feet away. The soft lead ball went all the way through the boar's body, and was found under the skin of the ham on the off-side leg. The distance it penetrated flesh and blood measured more than 30 inches!

I grant that the shot was at almost point blank range, and that penetration is a bit less at 50-70 yds. But, Not much less, according to my own penetration, Comparison testing.

If you have a MV for your "Hottest hunting load", you can use computer programs to determine the remaining velocity at 50, 70, 100, or any other yardage you desire. Then its not that difficult to reduce the powder charge to obtain that downrange velocity at the Muzzle for doing comparison penetration testing, to find an approximate example of what your ball will do on live game at a given distance, using any load.

Without a chronograph, years ago, I tested both 60 grains of FFFg and 100 grains of FFFg powder in my .50 cal. rifle, with a 39" barrel. I shot a .490" ball, with .015" patch, and Young Country 101 patch lube. The penetration test was done with 1" boards, spaced an inch apart, and set up approx. 20 feet from the muzzle.

For comparison, I shot a 180 grain .30 cal. .30-06 Commercial JSP Remington bullet into the box, and it expanded and penetrated through 8 boards and spaces. My .50 caliber "target" load of 60 grains of FFFg penetrated 6 boards, expanding, and smacked into the 7th bd. My 100 grain Load also expanded, and penetrated 6 bds. smacking into the seventh, and hanging up on a sliver of lead. When I touched the lead ball, it instantly fell away and joined the other down at the bottom of my "box".

I had expected to see a lot of difference in the penetration of the mild target load, and the rip-snorting "hunting load" in that rifle. I was shocked to find there simply wasn't any. After discussing the results with more experienced MLers, and other friends who had done Years of penetration testing with lead bullets, I learned that the weight of the projectile has more to do with penetration than does velocity. Velocity is critical on very hard substances, like steel armor plate, but not on flesh and bone.

I have since seen and discussed Chronographed results from other people that matched the performance I experienced doing my penetration testing almost 30 years ago, now. You don't have to be a "Scientist" to do good "scientific" research, and you don't have to have the latest laboratory equipment to get usable results.

There is NO ACCEPTABLE substitute for living flesh and bone, with functioning internal organs.

Ballistics Gel is simply a medium that can be used easily in indoor AND outdoor ranges for testing. You can use most anything- including water, if you have a large enough container. The problem with water is figuring out How MUCH penetration you get- measured in feet and inches, or centimeters, and its re-usability if your containers are ruptured. Not everyone has access to a large, deep swimming pool, where you can hang plastic screens at measured distances to help you determine depth of penetration.

I knew that the Remington Commercial bullet I used in that .30-06 would penetrate an Elk on a broadside shot, based on many observations in the field by competent hunters, and writers. So, I used it as my testing "Standard".

After testing my .50 cal. rifle shooting RBs, for kicks, we fired both a commercial 405 grain JSP bullet out of a .45-70 rifle. It mushroomed as advertised, and penetrated 10 boards and broke the 11th. A .50-140-550 sharps rifle was used and it penetrated all 12 boards and spaces, keyholing the last 3 boards( #s 10,11, &12), and burying itself sideways into a RailRoad tie used as a Backstop behind the penetration box. [Elmer Keith once reported testing the old Sharps buffalo cartridge, using Gel Blocks, and the .50-140-550 penetrated through 4- 1 foot thick blocks, and kept on going!] The bullet was visible, but was more than 1/2 " into the wood. It took us about 20 minutes to dig it out, using axes and knives.it was a bit shorter in length, and smaller in diameter, but it failed to mushroom at all!

A very good friend of mine, who had designed bullets and shotgun slugs, and had been testing his designs for years, both on his backyard range, and in shooting deer, used sandbags for his penetration testing. He wasn't worried about how deep any bullet or slug would penetrate: He instead was interested in how it would upset, and "EXPAND" at ranges. He had an extensive collection of slugs he had recovered from deer he had shot over the years at various distances, and he used those spent slugs- all flattened-- to compare to any new slug he tested.

Any medium can be used for testing penetration, as long as you understand that you need to compare the "unknown" to something that is "known". I have test-fired into dirt, elm tree stump, pine, and oak boards, paper- both wet and dry bundles, magazine bundles, gypsum board( wallboard) 2 x's, water, sand, ballistics gel, Steel plates, Armor plate, and body armor. I even fired some rounds at cement blocks( cinder blocks to some). All will work if you understand their limitations, and plan your test accordingly. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :bow:
 
I have never clocked my balls but use 80 gr in a .58 with a moderately snug patch and get good groups at 50 yds 3" works good for me and do not see that 2 1/2" would help much, I just shy away from the modern ballistic tools and theories with the MLs, just seems more fun to me this way.
 
Agreed TG, there certainly is a time to say "good enough" and I'd be happy with 3" from a smoothbore, just wish I could get there. :haha:
 
In Spenses's article he quotes:

So, my load for all round ball shooting is 80 grains of FFFg Goex, a .125 inch hard card overpowder wad, a .500 inch cushion wad soaked in lubricant, and then the ball, either patched with .017 inch ticking or loaded bare and followed with a .0625 inch overshot card wad. That loading gives me 1475 fps at the muzzle and an easy trajectory to work with in the hunting field...one inch high at twenty-five yards, two inches high at fifty yards, on target at seventy-five yards and about four inches low at one hundred yards. This method works well enough for me that I have no inclination to change it.

Your experiences seem quite different. I tried this load in my J Brown fowler and it worked quite well.

higene
 
cgg said:
My 38" smooth bore 20 ga. with a patched .595 ball weighing 320 grns. chronographed over 1200fps with 70 grains of 3F Goex about 10' in front of the muzzle. Don't know what the speed is at 50 yds. Just FYI--anyone else actually chrono their smoothbores?

Here are the results of a few shots I chronographed last year--

20 bore 38" Colerain/Track of the Wolf smoothbore barrel
.595 ball--319 grains (avg.)
.023 cotton/canvas patch
"moose milk" lube

70 grns. Goex 3F
1273 fps
1270
1251

80 grns. Goex 3F
1419
1381
1375

80 grns. Goex 2F
1258
1238

100 grns. Goex 2F
1357

The most accurate load in my gun is with 70 grns. of 3F.
 
80 grns. Goex 2F
1258
1238


I looked in my book and got very similar numbers from my 36" 20 gage trade gun. North Star .620" bore using a .600 ball with .015" spit lubed patch. It doesn't exactly crack but sort of a sharp bang. It is slightly over speed of sound and shoots exceedingly accurate to 50 yards.
 
Fred_D said:
Keep adding 5 grains till it makes a distinct "crack" with the report; that'll be the speed of sound at your altitude.... Add 5 or 10 grains more and tweak that for the most accurate.
I've seen this procedure recommended before, but am not sure of the thinking behind it. Is there supposed to be some advantage to having your MV just above speed of sound?

Spence
 
Is there supposed to be some advantage to having your MV just above speed of sound?

Not sure, my personal feelings are with that; at least you have a rough idea of the velocity. Surely one can pour in "X" amount of powder and shoot "Y" velocity. If that is accurate, great! now try it on living tissue and see if "Y" will kill.

Velocity seems to be a recurring query, and that is a free method of getting a relatively accurate number, without instrumentation ($$$$). As I mentioned you can pump your velocity way up there but with PRB it just isn't retained well. So I suppose around 1100-1200 fps will give you a good compromise between flatter trajectory and retained velocity.
 
After I posted this discussion, Ifound this on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_ballistics

It basically says that the .8 to 1.2 mach velocity range is very unstable with the shock wave in front of, or somewhere along the body of the bullet. Past mach 1.2 (1350 fps) the shockwave is behind the bullet and it has a smooth ride to the target. Granted, this discussion centers on an elongated spinning projectile, but I would think the same issues of getting knocked off course would apply to a round ball without spin. They refer to it as the transonic problem:

"...In the transonic region, the centre of pressure (CP) of most bullets shifts forward as the bullet decelerates. That CP shift affects the (dynamic) stability of the bullet. If the bullet is not well stabilized, it can not remain pointing forward through the transonic region (the bullets starts to exhibit an unwanted precession or coning motion that, if not damped out, can eventually end in uncontrollable tumbling along the length axis). However, even if the bullet has sufficient stability (static and dynamic) to be able to fly through the transonic region and stays pointing forward, it is still affected. The erratic and sudden CP shift and (temporary) decrease of dynamic stability can cause significant dispersion (and hence significant accuracy decay), even if the bullet's flight becomes well behaved again when it enters the subsonic region. This makes accurately predicting the ballistic behaviour of bullets in the transonic region very difficult. ... Because of this marksmen normally restrict themselves to engaging targets within the supersonic range of the bullet used."
 
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Reading this thread has made me wonder about how far the ball can go before slowing back down into the transonic realm. Might be a fun exercise with the ballistic calcs for verious diameters and MV's. But, that would really be of interest with longer distances, with rifling.
 
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