good elk charge and expected velocities from a .58

[texcl]

Alright I have a 42" .58 rice c weight barrel (flintlock)round rifling, what is a good max load with a p/b and what kind of velocity can I expect. I live in ND and hunt the north country quite a bit, I'll be hunting bear, elk, moose as well as deer and hog (when I visit my bro in TX) so I'd like to have a good powerful load for the bigger quarry, but not load it to the point of excessive wear and such. What do you guys use? The only velocities I've seen posted were up to 90 grns. out of a 38" barrel.

 

[Mad Professor]

for a navy arms zouave 32" brl lyman lists loads all the way up to 180 grs ffg with .560 ball 0.015 patch crisco lube.

Here are some numbers:

Charge Vel Pres

90 1238 5500
110 1352 6200
130 1451 6600
150 1560 7600
170 1669 8500
180 1737 9200

 

[Zonie]

Interesting. You must have a different edition than I do.

The Lyman BLACK POWDER HANDBOOK & LOADING MANUAL 2nd edition that I have stops at 140 grains for the .58 caliber 32" 1:48 twist barrel they tested.
The weird part is the velocities are a bit higher.

These loads were shooting a .570 diameter roundball over Goex FFg, patched with a .010 thick Ox-Yoke pre lubed patch and fired with a RWS Musket cap.

Charge Vel Pres
90 1392 5900
110 1543 6900
120 1625 7400
130 1699 8200
140 1773 9100

In any case, I'm sure a .58 caliber rifle will be more than enough for an elk or a moose providing a good shot is made.

 

[Herb]

He is using the first edition of the Lyman Black Powder Handbook G-O powder, FFg.

Hello, texcl, I am an old Nort Dakota man myself. Uff da!

I built a flint Hawken, 36" Green River barrel. With a .575 cast ball (much too hard to load for hunting) and 90 grains of Goex 2F, six shots averaged 1441 fps with a spread of 38 fps.

100 grains of Goex 2F with a .562 ball (best size, I think) gave 1525 fps for five shots, ES 19. 100 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 gave 1630 fps for five shots, spread 19 fps.

And Triple 7 2F, 100 grains with 5 grains of Goex 2F as a booster. Needed an over powder wad, so did the others. Six shots averaged 1801 fps with a spread of 25 fps.

With a Chambers Mark Silver Virginia rifle I built, 44" bbl I think, using .562 balls, 80 grains of Goex 2F went 1416 fps for five, ES 30. 90 grains ditto, six shots went 1527, ES 12. With 100 grains of Goex 2F, five went 1571 with an ES of 25.

All these loads are accurate. Probably all these powders can be loaded with heavier charges, but that 1800 fps was plenty recoil for me.

 

[Mad Professor]

Zonie and Herb,

Yes those values are out of the Lyman first edition. I have the 2nd too but the 1st happened to be closest to my computer.

The 1st does not list the rate of twist of the NA barrel? The 2nd just lists twist without manufacturer.

The 2nd does use a slightly heavier ball (.570 276 gr vs .560 260 gr) and patch/lube combination (.010 oxyoke vs 0.15 crisco). Both use musket caps.

Just like loading CF rifles, little things do seem to make a difference. :thumbsup:

P.S. also note the progression of pressures with the different loads. I suspect that's why they stopped at 140 grs in the 2nd edition loads. I think navy arms are made in Spain. If so the standard European proof load is ca. 10,000 psi (e.g. 760 Kg/cm2).

:hatsoff:

 

[texcl]

wow, I thougt there would be a bigger difference in velocities between a 44" and 36" barrel. If I can obtain 1500-1600fps for an accurate hunting load I think I'll be happy. I'd really like 1900 or so but it seems very difficult to obtain these velocities in a rifle over .54 without ungodly amounts of powder. If you run the numbers through a ballistics calculator it doesn't look too hot. But I know that 90grns of powder behind a .62 r/b will blast through a deer even after busting the shoulder and ribs, as a matter of fact I think it's more effective than my favorite .308 load which won't exit half the time after hitting large bones.

 

[Herb]

I think your 1500 to 1600 fps would make a good load even for moose. Just don't shoot them in the shoulder or neck, but through the rib cage. I don't have a .58 now, but suspect that about 110 to 120 grains of Swiss 2F would give close to 1900 fps. The Lyman book, 2nd edition, shows .58 loads with round ball in a 32" 1-48 twist barrel. Their maximum load of Goex 2F is 140 grains at 1773 fps at only 9,100 psi.

The twist of the .58 barrel in the first edition may be 1 in 72", shown on page 140.

 

[Mad Professor]

Good eyes Herb. I missed that barrel info at the start of the 32" 58 cal section.

I wonder why they discontinued giving barrel land/groove sizes in the 2nd edition?

 

[Kentuckywindage]

Took my elk out with my .54 @ 140 yards with 80gr pyrodex RS and .530 round ball. She only went 60 yards before tipping over dead. Excellent blood trail too.

 

[Trench]

wow, I thougt there would be a bigger difference in velocities between a 44" and 36" barrel. If I can obtain 1500-1600fps for an accurate hunting load I think I'll be happy. I'd really like 1900 or so but it seems very difficult to obtain these velocities in a rifle over .54 without ungodly amounts of powder. If you run the numbers through a ballistics calculator it doesn't look too hot. But I know that 90grns of powder behind a .62 r/b will blast through a deer even after busting the shoulder and ribs, as a matter of fact I think it's more effective than my favorite .308 load which won't exit half the time after hitting large bones.

I have a .58 and I settled on only 80gr of FFg for this year's deer hunt. Figure I'm getting around 1300 FPS. You should run some numbers through a RB ballistic calculator and you might be surprised that 1500-1600 fps at the muzzle doesn't get you much more velocity at 100yds than 1300fps. We're only talking 70-100fps increase. It seems to me that upping the powder charge only helps when you want more power up to 50 yds. RB's just bleed off so much velocity after the 50 yd mark.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

A higher velocity equals a flatter trajectory which does aid shot placement at estimated ranges and shot placement is what it is all about.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Higher velocity does not flatten trajectory very much with the larger ball diameters. Considering the size of an ELK, its more important to keep the recoil down in terms you can handle as a shooter, so that IT does not affect shot placement, rather than wishing and hoping that more velocity will help you get that heavy round ball into the elk at longer ranges. Elk are not usually found basking in the open fields. In edge cover, and in heavy timber, 100 yards is a long way just to see an Elk Clearly- much less get a shooting opportunity and take the shot.

The law of diminishing returns kicks in fairly soon when shooting those heavy balls. You can get more velocity by adding powder, but at the price of less accurate groups, and more recoil.

MY brother was answering questions from a man shooting one of those unmentionable Zip Guns we don't talk about here. His was built by T/C, and he actually sent it back to the factory complaining that the barrel was inaccurate, shooting 150 grains of Pyrodex. The factory sent the barrel back with a target and a note indicating that the gun shot just fine using the recommended 80 grain charge.

The man told Pete that he got "20% more velocity using another " pellet" to raise the powder charge from 100 grains to 150 grains." MY brother's comment was, " It seems to me that adding 50% more Powder and getting only 20% more velocity is really pushing the law of diminishing returns, isn't it? "

Or, to borrow a line from Dr. Phil,

" So, How's that working for you??"

I don't know how much powder a .58 rifle can consume before that point where the law of diminshing returns becomes a major factor. I do penetration testing to know what kind of terminal ballistic's performance I am going to get from any particular caliber or projectile. I spend lots of time on the range testing loads off a bench rest, at 50 and 100 yards to see what seems to deliver the best ACCURACY at those ranges. I did this before I bought a chronograph. I now use the chronograph because I can find out answers quicker using it than doing it the old fashioned way- shooting, and examining targets, and my spent patches. But, I still examine targets, and my spent patches, even with the chronograph, because they also tell me information the Chronograph CANNOT TELL ME.

The Elk is still a member of the deer family, and is not born with armor plating. They are killed with Bow and Arrow, so you know you can get closer to them than 100 yards, if you are a hunter. They have been killed with .45 caliber RB, although I would not recommend it. The .50 is considered an effective Elk round. So is the .54, which I suspect is the most common caliber for use with a PRB for Elk. At under 100 yds, its hard to see much difference in the performance of a .50 and .54 RB on Elk.

The loads I have fired out of a .58, or have seen fired, are fairly mild, compared to the loads that have been discussed here. 50-60 grains of FFg Goex. The ball does seem to penetrate well, even at those velocities, and most of the shooters don't want any more recoil. I would imagine that an 80 grain charge will give you a pretty decent shove. Above 100 grains, that shove becomes a sharper crack.

Do as you wish, of course, but I would have to have something more than some minute flattening of trajectory for me to justify using more powder behind a .58 caliber ball.

When it comes to analyzing the use of "flatter trajectory", ask yourself, At what range, and, when using open sights, can I actually HOLD the sights well enough at that distance to take advantage of difference in trajectory that the extra powder is giving me? :hmm:

And, then decide how you are going to estimate range on your hunt. If you have a laser range finder, that will give you the best information. If not, its very easy to underestimate, or overestimate yardage by as much as 25 yards when looking past 100 yards. Such a miscalculation will wipe out any advantage your more powerful load might have given you for placing the ball accurately into the vital organs of the ELK. :shocked2:

There is a reason MLers get close to their game before taking a shot with any PRB, and caliber. :thumbsup:

 

[Trench]

What style of rifle do you have? My .58 is an Early Virginia by Matt Avance. It's comfortable to shoot due to the wide butt, although I havn't put any more than 90gr of FFg in it. Still, on the bench it's only a shove and you don't even notice anything shooting freehand.
What is the largest charge you've put through yours so far, and how did the recoil feel?

 

[Jumpshot]

180 1737 9200

180 grains? Yikes!

 

[texcl]

It's a virginia rifle as well, it's in the shop so I haven't tested any loads out of it, yet. I currently use a .62 fusil with a 90gr. charge, the recoil doesn't bother me in the least, and I know it is way lighter than my virginia is going to be. I hunt alot and usually take my game within 30 yards, but even at those ranges i've hit game in the shoulder blade versus a lung shot, and I just feel more comforatable hunting elk, bear and moose with the larger ball, I do think that a .50 would punch through 90% of the time, but I like the confidence of the bone crushing big ball. I will not use a load, however, that is so large it comprimises accuracy by a great degree. My buddy at work has a chrony and will let me use it, I'll post results when I start working up loads.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Considering the size of the ball,( diameter), and weight ( 285 grains), you can use a hard alloy( wheelweights) cast ball, if what you are wanting is to break bones and still penetrate through an Elk.

Someone printed out a tabke fir various calibers of round ball loads, at chosen MVs, and for a .58 caliber RB, they chose to calculate Trajecotry using a MV of 1600 fps. The gun was zeroed at 100 yds. Mid-range Trajectory, at BOTH 50 and 60 yards is 2.5 inches.

If you can hold 2.5 inches at 100 yards with open sights, off-hand, you should be entering the shooting matches at Friendship, and become a National Champion!

Personally, a 260 grain piece of lead is 60% of an ounce, and I believe that once you get that much lead moving, its very difficult to slow it down, no matter how fast or slow you move it out the barrel. From the very limited loading data I have on a .58 caliber, you would need to load at least 110 grains of FFg powder, and possibly even FFFg powder to get that velocity. However, in just a 32 inch barrel I am not sure that even that much powder is going to give you 1600 fps MV.

 

[wtilenw]

With 120 gr. KIK 2f I get 1610fps with a GM IBS barrel which I think is 32".

 

[paulvallandigham]

Thanks for that data. The data I have did not specify barrel length, and the maximum efficient powder charge for that caliber and barrel length is about 104 grains.

Any idea what your SDV is for 5 shots?

 

[pchwcf50110]

i use 130 FFFG Goex in my 32" .58 and a .575" PRB. it's good for 1800 fps.

 

[longcruise]

However, in just a 32 inch barrel I am not sure that even that much powder is going to give you 1600 fps MV.

I think his is a 42 inch.