good load for an Old Army?

[TFoley]

tac
You can measure by volume and check those measured loads by weight ONLY if you are using real black powder.

ALL of the synthetic powders weigh less per cubic centimeter (or cubic inches) than an equal volume of real black powder.

This is the reason your weighed measure of Pyrodex P weighed less than was expected.

These less dense synthetic powders are designed so that when measured using a volumetric measure they will have approximently the same amount of power as an equal volume of real black powder.

This allows us to safely use the Traditional volumetric method of measuring a powder load with the synthetic powders and ending up with roughly the same velocity and pressures one would expect from that amount of black powder.

As I mentioned above, the 777 powder has about 15 percent more energy (and pressure) than an equal volume of black powder.
This explains why Hodgdon recommends reducing the volumetric load about 15 percent under a black powders volumetric load to achieve similar results.

Sir - I fully understand that, hence the comment in my post above.

I fully agree with the poster who noted that he could get around 40gr of BP and a ball into the chamber, as I have been around to a friend's house and just done it myself - having the spoil the charge afterwards as we cannot shoot in his apartment.

However, notwithstanding the difference, please tell me how anybody can get 53gr of ANY powder into the chamber of any ROA?

tac, still puzzled.

BTW - we also measured my loading measure, the usual DGW all-brass doo-dad with the sliding piston, and a charge of 80gr of FFg in THAT weighs 89gr. Just thort you'd like to know :wink:

 

[missionary5155]

Good morning
One item NOT mentioned is "What is the actual procedure used to load?".
You can fill the cylinder to the top and call that full. You can also begin to tap the side of the cylinder and watch the powder settle and get some more in. You can use a drop tube and again get more in the cylinder.
The origonal poster stated often enough.. "NO WAD under Projectile". Wads take up alot of space. A Round Ball also permits the use of just a bit more powder as the round curvature of the ball does NOT displace as much.
I personally think RUGER means what they say. The ROA can be loaded with any amount of Sporting Black Powder & Pyrodex. You can get MORE 4f into the Ruger cylinder BUT I hoard what I have left for my flinters. You can get MORE Pyrodex Pistol into the cylinder. I still have some and it will give the ROA a bit more power whatever projectile you use. The use of other substitutes is your option BUT have you asked RUGER their opinion? I have not seen any PUBLIC announcement by RUGER. I do not have or use the NEWER substitutes. They may be great... I am content with Black & Pyrodex. Black is harder to find... you may have to drive to get it. You may have to call a distributer and pay the HAZMAT on a 25 # case... but it is still out there.
BUT if I need MORE power I will get out a .58 or a .62 or a .68 smothbore and prepare for battle. There just is no reason (except for armed conflict) to push the safety envelope ignoring the sane advice of the manufacturer.

 

[missionary5155]

Good morning
It is pouring rain here.... so....
I decided to do some load experimenting with my ROA to find out how much MY cylinder will hold documented. I did NOT compare all 6 cylinders for exact capacity. They measure the same with a dial caliper for diameter and depth so that is good enough for me. I used one marked cylinder for all measurements.
Using my 3F (Gearhart-Owen) MY ROA averaged 50.3 grains of powder filled to the top of the cylinder and the excess scraped off with a blade. Same cylinder averaged 53.4 grains same powder by tapping the cylinder side 15 seconds to settle it.
Using Pyrodex P the same cylinder holds an average of 34.7 grains. By tapping again 15 seconds the same cylinder holds 37.1 grains.
This is about the same increase I have seen with loading 45-70, and 44-77 cases. It also is real close to the increase you can gain be using a 24 inch drop tube.
IF I was going hunting and desired the utmost power using my 3F or Pyrodex P I would go to the extra effort and Tap my cylinder no matter what projectile I was using with or without a wad. More powder is more power. In a revolver that 6%+ gain is something. But out at the range plinking about... NO it just is not worth the effort to me.
Bottom line... Maybe someones ROA will hold more powder than mine or yours. You will not know for sure until you find out. I do know 4F will compact that wee bit more than 3f... maybe mine will hold 55 grains but (I have no NEED to find out) as Pyrodex P will give more velocity than 4F will and I have bunches of that and my little bit of 4F stays put for my flinters.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

I can't believe we're even discussing putting 4Fg in a revolver! FOR ALL OF THE NEWBIES OUT THERE--DON'T DO IT!!

Maybe one of the Moderators may want to look at this and advise also :thumbsup:

 

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I have called RUGER. The technician read right out of the manual. Any Black powder in the designation of F to 4F and any charge that will fit in the cylinder THAT will mantain enough room to seat the projectile 1/16 inch below the muzzle is safe to use. (If you have a manual it is printed there.)
I personally will stick with 3F as stated. If I need more power than Pyrodex P can deliver I will use a larger caliber. BUT that is what the manufacturer states in writting in their manual and is willing to read to this caller over the telephone.

 

[crockett]

We have sort of had this conversation before and as a general rule I suppose I'm in the "bubba" category in the respect that I think misplaced caution is sometimes exercised on the notion of "safety". I think sometimes what we have is a failure to communicate. If someone says how much black powder can I put into a steel frame Remington and the old standby answer is you can't overfill such a gun- that is based on the assumption that the gun is filled with black powder and a round ball. If a heavy conical is used then pressures go up and suddenly we all have to ask ourselves- what's what?
The last time we figured the Colt Walker used a 170 grain conical with charges of 40-50 grains (if I recall correctly) and the assumption was that if you could only get 37-40 grains of black into a Remington Chamber with a RB then the charge of black using the conical would be far less and since larger charges were used in the Walker then we could conclude that a 30 "ish" charge in a Remington using black powder and a 180 grain buffalo bullet versus the 170 grain conical all pretty much boded well FOR A FEW HUNTING LOADS- not a steady diet. In any event I think we tried to base conclusions on some sort of prior data.
As I've stated before I'm a pretty big fan of Elmer Keith and I put a lot of faith into what he wrote. When he was developing the 44 Magnum he worked up what he thought was a maximum load the gun would safely handle and THEN backed off a couple of grains in the interest of safety and then fired thousands of such rounds before surmising that the old 44 Special was way under loaded for the types of modern pistols S & W was manufacturing.
Elmer liked 150 grain bullets from a 30-06 for deer (mule) hunting.
Elmer also saw the handgun as a tool of opportunity and thought the Navy 36 would be handy to tote along to shoot rabbits, etc. And, he was a bigger fan of RB's in a cap and ball revolver than he was of conicals. That was however the old fashioned round balls with the flat sprue nub or cut off that he felt improved expansion on impact.
I forget who was going to run some tests on the ballistic gelatin as to what is the more destructive at short range- conicals or RBs. In my deer hunting experience there are only a couple of situations where a handgun may be handy, one is if you are stump sitting and are right handed and a deer sneaks in behind you on your right- with a rifle it's hard to twist around and shoot but you might be able to take a right handed shot with a handgun. The other is trailing wounded game where you might need a "finishing shot" at really close range. Generally this ought to be done with a rifle you have reloaded before the tracking job.
Another reason to carry a cap and ball revolver while hunting is to shoot rabbits or a coyote that may have come into a doe bleat, etc. And, if there is any crime issues in your area- personal protection when you get back to your vehicle.
In any event, having to max out top velocity may be unnecessary to begin with. I think the 777 was developed with in-line rifles in mind. I think I would "load up" with fffg black powder and probably a round ball, preferably with old type with the flat sprue front- and let it go at that. I think for a short range shot at deer- into the neck or noggin- that ought to be fine.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

O-K, IF it's in the manual, I'll bite! This 4F thing in the manual has never been posted before to my knowledge! I might just look this up and scratch my head for myself!

Dave

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

I read Elmer as well...the 600 yard shot with a 4" Model 29 is a classic :thumbsup:

As to what you wrote about a while ago, I remember the thread somewhat, but that isn't exactly the topic now. It is similar though :hmm: and you make several valid points.

Dave

 

[tv_racin_fan]

MY Ruger Old Army manual states that "it is safe to use as much Black Powder as the chamber will hold, leaving room for the bullet". It also states that "Our testing indicates that a good starting accuracy load, using a pure lead .457" diameter ball, is 20 grains FFFg and sufficient filler (corn meal is frequently used as a filler material to seat the ball approximately 1/16th" below the chamber mouth. You may find that some minor adjustment of this charge upwards or downwards is more accurate in your "Old Army"". Elsewhere in the manual it says that, "Black Powder is usually classified by powder grain size with "Fg" being the largest granulation and "FFFFg" being the smallest normally available. Any granulation within these gradations could be used in the "Old Army"; normally, however, "FFFg" is the prefered grain size".

I take this to mean that the Ruger Old Army is strong enough to safely shoot as much of whichever granulation of powder that I prefer and whichever bullet I prefer seating the bullet 1/16th below chamber mouth. I have yet to try FFFFg in mine but I intend to test it out to see which charge level I prefer for the purpose at hand.

I had a couple guys on another forum send me some conicals to try out. One of them has used the conical he sent me over 30grains of FFFg in an 1858 replica to harvest deer.
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/produ...=3630&osCsid=46759b5be779e1e04654826ea3ea7c62

The Pietta manual lists 12-15 grains FFFg as the min/max load in the 44 cal revolvers. I'm not going to claim that my loading is safe but I generally load much heavier than that with as much as I can stuff in it being the "hunting load".

 

[crockett]

Depending on the length of the particular bullet, I would think that 30 grains would be about as much powder as you could get into the chamber.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

The ROA is indeed a strong gun, I'm just not comfortable with 4Fg in a pistol. IF your contemplating trying 4Fg, I'd find someone with a Chrono, start the experiment with 3Fg, then make a "Duplex" load of 25% 4Fg + 75% 3Fg, and note both speed AND accuracy changes. AND where the ball winds up! Then try a 50-50 load and do the same...work it up slowly and take GOOD notes! Only through this somewhat "scientific" process will you ever be able to see the real differences.

One thing is for sure: Unless your using the model with adjustable sights, every time you take a shot at game (or anything else!) with 4Fg, you're going to have to remember where to hold on target, as the original sights weren't ever intended to get 4Fg rounds on target :shocked2:

I myself wouldn't ever try the 4Fg route, as I have no reason to. I'd just put 50 grains or 55 grains (3Fg only) in my Walker (VERY ACCURATE)

Dave

 

[tv_racin_fan]

Actually I can get 30+ grains FFFg a wonder wad and a ball in the 1858 and 40+ a wonder wad and a ball in my ROA.

Smokin I hear ya on the FFFFg thing. I intend to go very slow with it and both of my ROAs are of the adjustable sight variety. I also have some triple 7 I may try instead as it should give a hotter load than true black without max powder loads.

I have some 180 and 220 grain conicals to try, I will start with about 25 grains of powder and work up to max load and test the penetration against round ball. I also intend to get some 190 and 200 grain conicals.