Goodoien Barrel question.

[cgg]

I have an Ohio Valley/Vincent style half-stock rifle built for me by a friend a few years ago from Track of the Wolf parts. It has a Goodoien .45 barrel and has always shot well, but, to be honest, not as well as well as a couple Getz barreled rifles I have.

Working with the Goodoien barrel off and on over the last couple years I noticed that it loads very easy with a .445 ball and an Ox-Yoke .020 patch. It loads easy with a .451 ball and even loads easy with a .457 ball and a .020 patch.

Predictably, it shoots best with the .457 ball and patch.

My question is, is this "normal" with Goodoien barrels? It is like my .45 is really a .46! And does anyone know where I can get .460 balls? I think they would load and shoot well, but hate to pay for a custom mold just yet.

The Goodoien barrel does seem to have very wide grooves (see pics) and perhaps that explains all the room for the "oversized" balls.

Thanks for any in put about Goodoien barrels and .46 balls.

 

[Bretwalda]

:shocked2: The gun is beautiful!!!! Have you ever measured the bore/groves with a mic? :hmm: That would really tell you what you need. I have not seen a .460 ball or mold but some of the custom molds are not that expensive. I am sure some of the other members will be able to provide more helpful information on custom molds (I dont cast...yet :haha: ) What rate of twist do you have and what are your current group sizes looking like?

 

[grey8833]

CGG:

I have a 60 cal. Goodien barrel and it will take a .600 ball with a .010 patch. Goodien barrels seem to be designed to take the maximum ball with a thin patch.

You can get a custom mold from a mold maker in England for very little exta cash. The Lee pot will cost you more. Jeff Tanner is his name. Find him at:

http://www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk/

Very easy guy to work with, nice product.


Mike F

 

[cgg]

Thanks very much--it is a pretty rifle and the wood was so nice that I did not bother with the traditional Vincent patch box.

I believe the twist was 1:56, but can't remember :redface:

Right now with a .457 ball and .020 patch and 50 to 60 grains of Goex3F, it will put three shots in about 1" to 1 1/2" at 50, from a rest. Not bad really, but my Getz barreled .54 Marshall flint will usually do better than the Goodoien/Vincent.

I need to work on the Vincent with lighter charges maybe and try Swiss powder too. :hmm:

Thanks again for your response.

 

[cgg]

Thanks for that link -- I will check it out.

 

[piteruu]

cgg- what are dimensions(bore/grove)of this barrel? I have barrel with similar rifling - wide grooves, narrow lands, bore .449, groves .463, twist 1/66". I think it is very fussy about lube and humidity. My best load is .440 ball + .018 patch. I have good results with .445 ball + .012 patch. 52-60grains of BP.

 

[Old Stoney]

cgg, I have a Goodoien .45 barrel 7/8 x 35" and it will also take a .451 or a .457 and I have tried several different loads in it and still wasn't satisfied in its groups. I was using 3f in it and decided to try some 2f and see how it performed. I was amazed at how it shot. I settled on a .020 denim patch LV lube and .445 ball. I was making clover leaves at 50 yards from the bench. It's the only .45 that I've ever had that prefered 2f over 3f but it made it my favorite off-hand rifle. Hope this helps.

 

[cgg]

Thanks for that info--I would never have thought to try FF. All my shooting has been with FFF Goex, but it is easy enough to try some 2F.

Thanks again.

 

[Old Stoney]

Cgg, My barrel was burning patches with every patch lube and patch thickness and ball that I used with the 3f powder. I had to go down to 40gr. of 3f to get it to stop burning the patches which caused a lot of drop at 100 yds. When I went to the 2f there were no more burnt patches and I was able to go up to 55 grs. of 2f which brought my PI back up where I needed it at 100 yds.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Use a filler of corn meal, farina, etc. or an OP wad as a firewall to protect your patch when shooting large charges of FFFg powder. That will seal the gases behind the PRB better, giving you more consistent velocities and a lower SDV. Accuracy is improved. :thumbsup:

 

[Dphar]

Thanks very much--it is a pretty rifle and the wood was so nice that I did not bother with the traditional Vincent patch box.

I believe the twist was 1:56, but can't remember :redface:

Right now with a .457 ball and .020 patch and 50 to 60 grains of Goex3F, it will put three shots in about 1" to 1 1/2" at 50, from a rest. Not bad really, but my Getz barreled .54 Marshall flint will usually do better than the Goodoien/Vincent.

I need to work on the Vincent with lighter charges maybe and try Swiss powder too. :hmm:

Thanks again for your response.

Try 1.5F Swiss. 1-1.5" may be as good as it will get without wiping every shot.
Might change the nipple to a new one, gas leakage from an oversized flash hole can cause groups to enlarge. A good percussion gun should pretty well seal the nipple to minimize leakage.
Rifles can be very individualistic an some require more work than others to find the accuracy load.

Dan

 

[Slowpoke]

My target rifle has a Goodoien barrel.. 40 cal... and it shoots a .405 RB w/.018 patch. It'll shoot in a ragged hole all day.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Remember that with a round bottom rifled barrel, the Coefficient of Friction between the sides of the bore, and the PRB is going to be less. That means that the ball can slip forward when you use hot caps, or hot powder. Using a filler, or OP wad will add mass, and also slow any movement of the PRB in the barrel, until gases have risen sufficiently to push the ball down the barrel consistently, shot after shot. This is why using a chronograph is important, and calculating the SDV for a string of shots gives you a better idea why a particular load shoots smaller groups in one gun than in another.

Any time you change the variable in a rifle, you change everything, including the out come. I don't think using a hotter powder is going to do much good, and using a more expensive powder is not going to produce any results that are worth the added cost.

Paul Matthews, the Dean of the .45-70 found that his standard rifle primers were actually pushing his heavy target bullets- 520 grains in weight!--- forward in the casing, giving his powder chamber a different dimension when the black powder ignited, depending on how well the brass casing, and its crimp actually held onto the bullet. He switched to using small pistol primers( analogous to using cooler percussion caps) and saw a substantial reduction in group size at 200 yds., using iron sights.

As has been discussed on this forum, there seems to be no uniformity in percussion caps, even by the same company, so that you can't differentiate well between so-called " magnum " caps and "standard caps". The only thing you can do, therefore,when shooting a PRB, is to use a slower powder- not a faster one---- or to hold back the bases from both the cap and the burning powder by using a filler, or OP wad between the powder and PRB. I know at least one shooter who was experimenting with using an OP wad, then a filler, then another OP wad, between the powder and PRB. His idea was that the rear OP wad would push against the filler, which would compress, before pushing on the forward OP wad, which then would push the PRB out the barrel. The slight delay in time, he thought, would give him a lower SDV. When I last talked to him, he had not concluded his testing with several rifles to see if it worked in all his calibers, and if it worked well enough to change his loading procedures.

 

[cgg]

Got out to the range today and shot the Goodoien barreled Vincent for the first time in a while. Here's a pic of my friend Barry with the rifle he built for me back around 2001 or 2002.

The group of the day was a Hornady .457 ball/Ox-Yoke Pre-Lubed .020 Patch/60 grns. (by volume measure) SwissFFF/RWS cap. This is also the best group the rifle has ever fired--3 shots 50 yds:

50 grains shot well too and is worth trying again. A couple loads would have 2 shots touching and one away--those I figure might be worth trying again. Other loads were 2"+ evenly spaced "triangles" and did not thrill me.

The rifle & barrel certainly have potential, and I don't shoot as well as I did years ago--at 48 years of age, my eyes won't focus on the front sight as well as they used to! This Goodoien barrel has been more finicky than my other ML's, but I enjoy playing with it.

I still plan to try some 2F powder and perhaps an OP wad, though I hate added more stuff to my bag.

Does anyone have a specific wad or material they recommend for an OP? I have never tried or shot one before.

I did some chronographing too and was amazed at how much faster SwissFFF is than GoexFFF. I have seen that with my .54's too, but the difference still surprises me. Of course velocity alone is meaningless without accuracy, but SwissFFF shoots nice groups too and the expense is not that bad in my case. I get it for about $20 a pound and only shoot about 4 or 5 pounds a year, so it does not break the bank.

When I get a chance to try 2F I will post the results and if anyone has OP wad recommendations, please let me know. Thanks for the help.

 

[sniper68]

First of all Beautiful rifle! I've got a Vincent with a .36 cal. GM bbl., shoots ragged holes at 25 yrds.W/40 grns. Goex FFFG .018 pillow ticking. However I have a 38 in. .36 cal Moodie bbl. with Forsythe rifleing, which is what it looks like you have(wide grooves, narrow lands). At 30 yrds shooting a .350 ball & .018 ticking I was getting 2/4" groups at 30 yrds., using from 20 to 45 grns of FFFG. :cursing: Went to .358 balls and had the same groups. Patches were good at all times. :cursing: While contemplating what to try at the next session, I loaded up to 50 grns and shot a 5 shot group. ONE ragged hole!!! 7/8" group measured outside to outside. Tryed two more groups with the same results!? My little "patched round ball magnum". :grin:
Soos what I'm getting at, you may want to try some heavier charges. Normally I use around 65 grns. FFFG for .45 cal.'s. You might try some heavier charges, like 65 to whatever (90 grns) and see what happens. Hope that helps, good luck. :thumbsup:

 

[cgg]

Sniper68--you may be on to something. The 60 grain load of SwissFFF I shot today chronographed at 1840 fps which is as fast a load as that rifle has ever shot. The 60 grains of Swiss averaged faster than 80 grains of Goex. And FWIW, 80 grains of SwissFFF averaged over 2100fps with a .457 ball that weighs 144 grns. :shocked2:

Maybe I have a "little patched round ball magnum" too.

BTW--patches have always been good with this rifle. No burn outs or tears. But I will still try an OP wad and 2F in the future.
Thanks for your input.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Nice pictures of a nice gun.

Regarding your question on OP wads, Check out Track of the Wolf, where they carry Walter's Vegetable fiber wads. They run about $7.00 per 1,000. If you order them directly from walters, you can probably save even more money.

John Walters

[405] 799-0376

500 N. Avery Drive, Moore, Okla. 73160

I recommended trying a corn meal filler( farina, or any other ground grain you already have at home) because for a trial, why spend any money if you don't have to??? You can take some corn meal in its box, or in a bag, and use a .45 Colt casing as a scoop. ( or use two scoops of meal from a .45 acp cartridge casing.)As long as you put enough meal down the barrel to cover the powder charge adequately, and are consistent in where you seat the PRB on top of it, the filler will work as well as an OP wad as a firewall. Where the OP wads shine is in being both a firewall, and A GAS BLOCK. Coarse fillers can allow some gases to blow by and cut patches, or ball, or both, unless enough filler is used with each shot. Mostly, meal fillers are very cheap to use.

I carry mine in a powder " flask" converted the process. The powder goes down the barrel, than a measure of filler is poured down the barrel. Then the PRB is pushed in and down. I carry my flask in my back pocket, since its flat sided. But, it can also be carried in my range bag, hunting pouch. :thumbsup:

 

[cgg]

Thanks very much for the info and advice. I appreciate you taking the time to respond :hatsoff:

 

[mobasscat]

I have a goodoien barrel in 54 cal. It would'nt shoot anything till I found the teflon coated patching from www.theminutemen.com. My hawken likes the .020 thickness, especially once fired patches. I retrieve my patches and lube them with crisco. It'll shoot 1.565" groups @ 100 yds. Give teflon a try,no burn throughs and minutemen makes it in different thickness's. It's the tuffest stuff I've ever used. Hope this helps!