Got a new smooth bore flintlock please help

[toot]

I would like to know what the meaning of each of them is.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

now that is an ACORN by any means. not a pineapple.

Oh thank you

Have a good day. It’s heavy rain in London miserable Got to have a winter hobby. So building a miniature Victorian gunpowder mill. Just a bit of fun. I’ll never use it. Ha ha ha.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

what is the meaning of each one?

Great barrel making in Birmingham. But seems many were brought from Holland /Belgium it’s on google somewhere. And there are still some old Damascus barrel blanks or in the white turning up here or there ,unfortunately it doesn’t say where the barrel blanks came from

 

[Grenadier1758]

@toot,
You should be aware of the threads of information available in the General Information Forum. One of the topics is about Proof marks.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/modern-replica-dating-by-proof-marks.49482/
The mark with a "V" is the viewing Mark.
The mark with a "P" is the passed Proof mark.

 

[MooseHunter92]

Any more insight on our 16 gauge? We were wondering what the possible worth would be on a smoothbore like ours.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

All depends who made it. In uk from £600 to £1400 at auction occasionally more But don’t sell it , don’t even think about selling it , but swapping it for another is ok , my 14g percussion is worth £300-£450 not a lot

 

[MooseHunter92]

All depends who made it. In uk from £600 to £1400 at auction occasionally more But don’t sell it , don’t even think about selling it , but swapping it for another is ok , my 14g percussion is worth £300-£450 not a lot

we are just curious about worth. If you read earlier posts you will see possible maker and timeframe it was made . Thank you for your reply. Did you make your table? I do quite a bit of wood working myself. The table that the 16 gauge is on I built. Even cut the tree down and milled the slabs myself. The only thing I didn’t do was weld the table legs.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

we are just curious about worth. If you read earlier posts you will see possible maker and timeframe it was made . Thank you for your reply. Did you make your table? I do quite a bit of wood working myself. The table that the 16 gauge is on I built. Even cut the tree down and milled the slabs myself. The only thing I didn’t do was weld the table legs.

Hello yes I made the table out of 4”by 2” timber from the yard and the legs from eBay it feels more farm like as a kitchen table. It was for outside but well liked it too much. The posh table went into my office never used again it’s 8 ft long great over Xmas Lovely to hear from you , heavy rain today, ( hint. My grandfather was a woodwork teacher )

thinking like my percussion your smoothbore looks more of a working rifle , by a local gunsmith, it’s stood the test of time , my wife Joan won’t have mine over the fireplace, Maybe yours £850 at auction Timber like your table has become very expensive in uk. See eBay uk Looking at around £200 for a hardwood rifle stock

It was a nice desk once but it’s put to better use, junk goodies gives me inspiration. Like thinking of the price of gunpowder. And a mini gunpowder mill. Will it be better than a stone tumbler. Just a winter project, well what else is there to do Wife’s gone shopping. Ha ha peace and peace be with you. Ha ha



love to you and all on the forum from London Love from Joan and Gordon , me 79 in March like so many on the forum. A young guy complained he was only He’ll no I am only 65

I wish you well from London uk

 

[smoothshooter]

If you can’t find a gunsmith that specializes in muzzleloading shotguns, at a minimum, I would take a close look with a borescope. If you don’t know someone with one or own one yourself, they can be had for well under $100 dollars. Niece’s farther in law had an old double with Damascus tubes. He knew I was into muzzleloaders and asked me to take a look at it. Although it looked good, from the outside and with a small light down the bore, my borescope told a different story. Look like a couple miles of bad road. Niece’s husband and FIL decided to test fire it. Smoke came out of the breech area on the first shot and the stopped. The right barrel split at the breech, and further examination revealed collateral damage to the left barrel. Guess what? It was determined it was my fault for not raising more of a fuss that the barrels were suspect.

At a minimum, get a borescope and check out the bore. The gun deserves that. There are countless old guns with Damascus barrels being shot today without issue, just make sure yours is up to the task. Suggest you wait for a couple of our British forum members to offer their opinion (folks like @Feltwad and @Britsmoothy), they are very familiar with older smoothbores, more so than most here or I will ever will be.

Can barrels on Damascus be relined if there is enough parent material by someone like Bobby Hoyt who knows their stuff?

 

[smoothshooter]

thank you for the complement, my lady fell in love with it (one of her late Christmas/New Years presents.) this smooth bore definitely has my curiosity for sure. Looking forward to more people chiming in about it. The old man assured me it has been handed down from father to son ever since it was made LONG ago he said. Whatever year it actually is, I feel very honored and luck to have it in our home now. I appreciate the precautionary word of advice. I will definitely take that into consideration. I’ve been advised to get it inspected by a professional smithy before firing it. There’s something just so cool to me about using an antique rifle or smoothbore to harvest game to feed my family. I don’t know if I could ever”wall hang” something like this. UNLESS it proved to be unsafe for my lady to use of course!

Having the barrel Magna-fluxed or X-Rayed would be best. I used to do a lot of that work myself. Don’t know where you could find someone to do it though, without having to drive a couple of hundred miles.

 

[DuncNZ]

I would like to know what the meaning of each of them is.

The F stamp means Foreign made . The acorn or pineapple or what ever finial is a finishing flourish , with maybe meanings of good luck or in the case of the pineapple and indication of wealth and good fortune . At the time pineapples were rare and expensive , some sailing ship Captains would come home from a voyage and put a pineapple on a spike outside their front door , this indicated they had returned safely , had been to exotic places and had had a profitable voyage .Acorn and Pineapple finials are found on buildings , gates, on the top of posts etc . Druids and lots of superstition were associated with oak trees , maybe that is why the acorn , or maybe just because it looks nice . What is the meaning of all the scrolls etc on Lancaster and other Long rifles ? , is it a charm ?or is it because it looks nice and adds some flourish and style the the firearm? .

 

[DuncNZ]

Another popular finial was a flaming urn , just a vase with flames coming out of it , no idea what that could mean , maybe a stylized mortar ?

 

[MooseHunter92]

Hey guys I got the barrel off and I found more stamps. Anyone know more about this? See photos

 

[Gordoncourtney]

 

[Gordoncourtney]

They are not quite Birmingham proof marks ?? The letters between arrows are the proof date but I cannot find realy old charts. This is an example only. I’ll keep looking. It’s all on google Just type in Birmingham
Proof marks.

 

[DuncNZ]

Moose Hunter , those are British proof marks they are a crown over crossed scepters , it is hard to make out but there should be a V under one cross, that is the View or inspection mark which was added after proving.
and a BPC under and to the sides of the X on the other mark further away from the breach .That is the proof mark ,
The proof was a suitable sized ball and four times the normal charge.
These marks started being used in 1813 and were used until 1904 . In 1855 more marks were added , so your gun would be between 1813 and 1855 , which is a fairly broad time line . .
If it was made earlier than 1813 it should have a Crown over a GP and a Crown over a V .
These marks on your gun were used by both London and Birmingham proof houses .
1 Hour later : I just looked up my gunmakers book and it says Fotherby E .Wakefield Yorkshire England , 1828-32 .so there we go that falls in line with the proof marks !!.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I am slightly uneasy about conclusions as the Birmingham sceptres arrow heads if you like point NE and NW where as those in the barrel point SE&SW Today I am relying on what’s on memory and google images as on ipone, I need my mates book up in Norfolk proof dating can be a lot of digging at times There are good records for Reilly guns as I had the makers name and serial No and I could trace it back to precisely 1853 The proof houses are very helpful so photo and email to them may get a better result , sometimes free sometimes a search charge. It’s all great fun I wish you well. London proof house is just a train ride away or I could pop up for you. But it’s Birmingham you want 94 miles from me , no thanks Ha ha

 

[MooseHunter92]

Thank you guys for all the info! Anything else you guys know feel free to post!

 

[DuncNZ]

I am slightly uneasy about conclusions as the Birmingham sceptres arrow heads if you like point NE and NW where as those in the barrel point SE&SW Today I am relying on what’s on memory and google images as on ipone, I need my mates book up in Norfolk proof dating can be a lot of digging at times There are good records for Reilly guns as I had the makers name and serial No and I could trace it back to precisely 1853 The proof houses are very helpful so photo and email to them may get a better result , sometimes free sometimes a search charge. It’s all great fun I wish you well. London proof house is just a train ride away or I could pop up for you. But it’s Birmingham you want 94 miles from me , no thanks Ha ha

I suggest you buy a copy of " The Stand Directory of Proof Marks " by Gerhard Wirnsberger ISBN:0-891-006-X , it is a very useful book , These are also useful Proof mark dates for British Guns . There is a list of secret Birmingham date marks which I have a copy some where but they are last centaury ones . A Scepter is a staff of Royal authority ( originally a club or mace ). The style has changed over the years .Its the head of the Scepter which is at the top on Moose Hunters Gun .These are the early proof marks on my Henry Nock 14 Ga. I had a look on Amazon for the book , get a USA copy . Much cheaper than England

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I am not much use today. had a look at a couple of my older percussion guns but nothing interesting to add. Nothing on my flint pistols i can read. I did check my 1886, according to the auctioneers, .36 percussion double rifle but the proof stamps , crown over BV & BP put it clearly after 1904 but before 1954 Interesting subject. Again on my 450-400 double all I know is it was made after 1906 with the arm and sword. But that still runs til today. So little help on dating it. I think it’s around 1924 when Manton took over Lyon and Lyon who knows. No rush the journey is the best part. I wish you all well