Got a new smooth bore flintlock please help

[MooseHunter92]

And it shoots good too! I had it inspected by a gunsmith, tested it myself and then my lady shot it. In her words “it’s mine and that spring Tom Turkey has no chance! “ hahahaha she loves it. Super light and shoots both round ball and shot accurately.

 

[Rudyard]

Nice looking gun. I have heard people outside of the forum say that Damascus barrels are somehow dangerous, but have not heard that on this forum. I would trust the folks on this forum concerning the care and feeding of a Damascus gun.

Its not a 'Damascus 'barrel its a' twist' barrel but that's fine might be later but there about's And certainly a nice gun . It looks good and has certainty been looked after . I have a book on British makers Ile see if that maker is listed/ probably provincial maker .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Archer 756]

"Damascus" is a twist barrel.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

"Damascus" is a twist barrel.

No not quite true ? It’s a play of words, more so, over here.uk These are true Damascus from my book Made from twisting rods so they twist together to get the beautiful pattern It’s a historic time thing, I guess plain twist was earlier cheaper and quicker and less skilled to make so came out on plain working guns like my percussion , probably the majority of guns are plain twist as that’s what people could afford , perhaps true Damascus was for the ruling upper classes , my percussion would not be described at auction as Damascus, it’s a nice gun though. As mentioned before the Belgium and other gun makers were skilled at Damascus barrel Tube making. Perhaps twist was made just in Birmingham. Who knows It’s an interesting subject so much research needed to become an expert on the subject , and really who cares a nice gun is a nice gun , daid my bit. I wish you well. Ha ha.

 

[Archer 756]

Thanks was interesting to read, new info thanks

 

[Rudyard]

Birmingham proof after 1814 then that's more like it not everyone went for percussion They still don't .The persistant "What,s it worth ?."is an irritating norm in the US while the item for what it is not what its worth should be the proper approach in my view .

Re the catch all 'Damascus' it should only relate to the barrels that are one mass of figured welds per old Kurdish /Turkish barrels a style not made in Europe prior to about 1814 or so by Rigby of Dublin . Any other twisted barrel being what it is. But Not' Damascus' there was a wide variety of twist & Damascus all down to the grade of the particular gun/rifle. This particular gun exibits a far more elongated twist that is normal but many guns where still turned out with plain Scelp barrels and good ones are fine too . A Yorkshire gun is it ? Ile go with that ,Former Curator of the Hull Maritime Museum Mr Arthur Credland Wrote a book on Yorkshire gun makers .
I WAS a Yorkshire gun maker though not being dead he wouldn't include me and I wasn't that desperate to be included . He included John Blanch of London who only had a shop in Hull a couple of years then emigrated to Tasmainia thence Melbourne but got killed in an explosion in his shop . He was a' Colonial' like me But getting so stylishly dead I suppose he qualified in Arthurs mind . I made more guns in the county that Mr Blanch had time to make . pout pout, My guns speak for me anyway .
Regards Rudyard

P S Don't go looking for' Rudyard 'marked guns there arn't any .

 

[DuncNZ]

The British proof laws state that a firearm must be in proof when sold , With shotguns that means the bore must be within the dimensions stated on the barrel and if the barrel has worn sufficiently to be out of proof it will re proved and stamped accordingly . With rifles they must be in proof , I have a rifle made by Alf Parker in 1924 , it has two sets of proof marks the original ones and the 1954 ones which would have been applied when it was sold after 1954 .
The original "Damascus" steel is actually Wootz steel (look it up ) which first came from India, I'd guess that the name Damascus steel came about because Damascus was a trading City where guns and knives made of Wootz were to be found , it was far away and exotic .
Because the twist barrels had the appearance of Wootz steel the name became common usage .

 

[ord sgt]

Do any of you fellas know what something like this would be worth?

If it were mine, priceless would be the worth.

 

[MooseHunter92]

If it were mine, priceless would be the worth.

Yeah now that we shot it and know it’s accurate and a good hunting gun we are going to keep it forever.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

The British proof laws state that a firearm must be in proof when sold , With shotguns that means the bore must be within the dimensions stated on the barrel and if the barrel has worn sufficiently to be out of proof it will re proved and stamped accordingly . With rifles they must be in proof , I have a rifle made by Alf Parker in 1924 , it has two sets of proof marks the original ones and the 1954 ones which would have been applied when it was sold after 1954 .
The original "Damascus" steel is actually Wootz steel (look it up ) which first came from India, I'd guess that the name Damascus steel came about because Damascus was a trading City where guns and knives made of Wootz were to be found , it was far away and exotic .
Because the twist barrels had the appearance of Wootz steel the name became common usage .

The best educational advice is to constantly look at Holts Auctions Norfolk uk probably one of the worlds best. Guns auctioned 4 times a year from all over the world. Good photos If you get into the website you will see they give measurements of bore wear and tear on shotguns Worn out out of proof are sold as action and stock to dealers only It was a 30 mins on the train to London auction house , hundreds of guns to inspect and play with. Colvid put an end to that now it’s on line from Norfolk a nasty long 5 hour , drive away. I sometimes bid for a gentleman in Florida but you are looking at a minimum export charge of £700 for lots of paperwork I spend days looking at Holts guns as I can enlarge the details on my iPad. The only problem is they never seem to comment on bores , one hopes of the outside is good so will be the inside. My big cape rifle was rusty “ in need of refurbishment “ so I knew I would have to reline the barrels , however after I picked it up the bores were excellent

 

[Gordoncourtney]

22 Mar 2018	Lot Detail​
	Lot 204: A GOOD ANTIQUE 8-BORE BRONZE-BARRELLED SIGNAL CANNON OF NAVAL STYLE,	£700 - 900
Sold for £800​

22 Mar 2018	Lot Detail​
	Lot 400: A. ROSSE, PENISCHE A SCARCE 50-BORE FLINTLOCK RIFLED HUNTING CARBINE or BREAST-PISTOL, no visible serial number,	£1000 - 1500
Sold for £1,000​

22 Mar 2018	Lot Detail​
	Lot 401: A 12-BORE FLINTLOCK FROG-MOUTHED IRON-BARRELLED BLUNDERBUSS WITH BRASS MOUNTS, UNSIGNED, no visible serial number,	£300 - 500
Sold for £400​

22 Mar 2018	Lot Detail​
	Lot 402: A 22-BORE WHEELOCK SINGLE-SHOT SPORTING-RIFLE, UNSIGNED, MODEL SAXON TYPE, no visible serial number,	£1400 - 1600
Sold for £1,500​

22 Mar 2018	Lot Detail​
	Lot 403: A 9-BORE FLINTLOCK SINGLE-BARRELLED BANK-GUN OR FOWLING PIECE OF EXCEPTIONAL LENGTH SIGNED ALLEN, no visible serial number,	£2500 - 3500
Sold for £3,000​

22 Mar 2018	Lot Detail​
	Lot 404:SAMUEL SMITH, LONDON A GOOD 16-BORE FLINTLOCK SINGLE-SHOT SPORTING-RIFLE, serial no. 3441,	£4000 - 5000
Sold for £5,500​

22 Mar 2018	Lot Detail​
	Lot 405:HENRY NOCK, LONDON AN EXCEPTIONALLY RARE 60-BORE FLINTLOCK SEVEN-SHOT VOLLEY GOOSE-RIFLE, serial no. 2917,	£14000 - 16000
Sold for £20,000​

22 Mar 2018	Lot Detail​
	Lot 406:HAUGH, DUMFRIES A 5-BORE FLINTLOCK SINGLE-BARRELLED FOWLING-PIECE, no visible serial number,	£2500 - 3500
Sold for £2,500​

22 Mar 2018	Lot Detail​
	Lot 407: A .740 FLINTLOCK SINGLE-SHOT SERVICE-MUSKET, UNSIGNED, MODEL CHARVILLE TYPE, no visible serial number,	£500 - 700
Sold for £500​

22 Mar 2018	Lot Detail​
	Lot 408: AN EXTRAORDINARY 9-BORE FLINTLOCK RIFLE FOR DANGEROUS GAME, THE LOCK SIGNED REA, no visible serial number,	£2500 - 3500
Unsold​

22 Mar 2018	Lot Detail​
	Lot 409: A 22-BORE FLINTLOCK DOUBLE-BARRELLED SPORTING-GUN, UNSIGNED, no visible serial number,	£1500 - 2000
Sold for £1,500​

22 Mar 2018	Lot Detail​
	Lot 410: A GOOD 28-BORE MATCHLOCK TORADOR MUSKET WITH GOLD KOFTGARI DECORATION, UNSIGNED, no visible serial number,	£500 - 700
Sold for £1,800​

22 Mar 2018	Lot Detail​
	Lot 411: AN INDO-PAKISTANI 18-BORE MATCHLOCK MUSKET WITH WHITE-METAL MOUNTS,	£150 - 250
Sold for £180​

22 Mar 2018	Lot Detail​
	Lot 412: HEYLIN, LONDON AN 8-BORE FLINTLOCK BRASS-BARRELLED BLUNDERBUSS, no visible serial number,	£1000 - 1500
Sold for £950​

22 Mar 2018	Lot Detail​
	Lot 413:KETLAND & CO, LONDON A 20-BORE FLINTLOCK BRASS-BARRELLED BLUNDERBUSS, no visible serial number	£1200 - 1600
Sold for £1,350​

1​

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Ps. If you click on the photo it will link direct with Holts computer an full page comes up well I does in uk. Ha ha. I wish you well If you want to look for a particular gun. Google the gun you want at holts auction Ie. “ cape rifle at holts auction” or “ cannon at holts auction” I wish you well. Bonhams sporting guns London maybe posher much smaller only three times a year but still in London 49 mins on train. Watch out for “sealed bid “ at holts lots of gunny junk and tatty guns

goes: The history of pattern welded shotgun barrels starts about 125 years after Alexander the Great made it to India, where Wootz/ Bulat/ Crucible steel was first forged 200 B.C.E. Etruscan smiths had been laminating blades for 400 years, but Wootz was a vastly superior product and the surface of finished weapons showed a pattern called “watering,” “firind," or "jawhar.” Possibly in an attempt to reproduce these patterns, smiths layered thin sheets of iron and steel which were repeatedly folded and hammer welded, then treated with an etching agent (at first citrus juices) to enhance the contrast. By the sixth century, pattern welded swords had made their way to Northern Europe. Crusaders returned home from the Middle East 1096 to 1270 bearing both scars and samples of these Damascus blades. About 1200 the first iron musket barrels were produced by folding a sheet of iron over a mandrel and hammer welding the long edge. At some point pattern welded sword methodology was applied to gun barrel methodology - twisting rods composed of thin layers of iron and steel, wrapping the rods around a mandrel, and hammer welding the edges. By the early 1600s, pattern welded gun barrels were being produced in India and Turkey, and examples exist of mid-1600s Turkish Miquelet barrels clearly showing a Four Iron Crolle pattern. By 1634 Hungarian gunmaker Caspar Hartmann made Damascus barrels for King Gyorgy Rakoczi I and by 1650 Spanish makers produced pattern welded barrels during the reign of Philip IV. With the defeat of Kara Mustafa Pasha by Jan III Sobieski at Vienna in 1683, thousands of pattern welded gun barrels were available for examination by armourers throughout Western Europe. By 1700, Liege was producing Twist barrels and Crolle Damascus by about 1750. After Gen. Napoleon Bonaparte’s expedition against the Mameluks in Egypt and Ottomans in Syria 1798-1799, production of Damascus barrels in St. Etienne and Liege was markedly expanded. J. Jones was granted a British patent in 1806 for a method of making barrels from scelps or strips coiled around a mandrel and by 1817 Rigby of Dublin was producing Damascus barrels. “Damascus iron” was manufactured in Birmingham by Wiswould and Adams about 1820. The last barrel maker in London was W. Fullard, of Clerkenwell, who ceased operations in 1844. From 1845 to 1855 John Dive's mill at Birmingham produced large quantities of “figured” barrels. Pattern Welded shotgun barrels can be classified into three general categories, all starting with pieces of iron and steel, but with different manufacturing methodology: Twist (thin ribbons of layered iron and steel which were NOT twisted before being wrapped around the mandril and hammer forged), Crolle Damascus in many patterns (determined by how the iron and steel were layered in the billet and the twisting of the rods), and Laminated Steel (a higher ratio of steel to iron mixed together and ‘puddled’ before being formed into rods.) Stub Twist (made from iron horse shoe nail stubs and chopped up coach spring steel), Plain Twist, and an early form of Laminated Steel were used for quality British gun barrels into the 1860s. Crolle Damascus was available in the late 1820s, but Two Iron large scroll “English Two Stripe” was not in general use until the mid-1800s, and along with Three Iron “Oxford” and a later Laminated Steel was used c. 1850-1890s. Four Iron “Turkish” appeared after 1870, although most 'Best Guns' used Three Iron. Lower quality English guns used Plain Twist/Skelp into the early 1900s. William Wellington Greener in The Gun and Its Development admitted that the great majority of unfinished tubes used by both Birmingham and London makers were obtained from Liege but…“With the English maker the figure of the barrel is the last thing to be considered when determining the type most fit for the particular purpose, whereas with the foreign manufacturer it is usually the first, and often the only consideration. The English maker takes a barrel that will do best; the foreign maker the barrel that will look best.” Leopold Bernard (1832-1867) and Rene Leclerc were barrel makers in Paris and responsible for many of the patterns seen on barrels produced in France, Liege, and Ferlach. Ernest Heuse-Lemoine (1834-1926) from Nessonvaux was a major barrel agent and maker in the Vesdre Valley and maintained representatives in London, Birmingham, and New York. He named “Boston” and “Washington” Damascus (patterns) especially for the American market. Damascus barrel production ceased in England in 1903 according to Greener, while in 1906 Liege produced 850 tons of Damascus barrels; 100 tons for export. Damascus production ended soon after August 7, 1914 when Liege fell to the invading German army. What was the 'Damascus Road' that carried pattern welded barrel (not blade) technology from the Islamic world to Western Europe; St. Etienne, Liege, Brescia, Suhl, and the British Isles? It is likely there were two main 'highways': the Moors to Spain and eastward, and the Turks to Hungary and westward (and northeast to Russia.) But the knowledge and material traveled via many pathways with the free, though not entirely voluntary, exchange of military and mercenary, armourers, artisans (the Walloons?),merchants, and explorers from the Far East to West Africa. Guns for the Sultan: Military Power and the Weapons Industry in the Ottoman Empire "Between the fifteenth and seventeenth centuries, direct military conflicts, the employment of European military experts and, to a lesser degree, illegal trade in weaponry ensured relatively easy dissemination of up-to-date technologies and military know-how in the Sultan’s realms. Istanbul was more than a simple recipient of foreign technologies with its Turkish and Persian artisans and blacksmiths, Armenian and Greek miners and sappers, Turkish, Bosnian, Serbian, Hungarian, Italian, German, and later French, English and Dutch foundrymen and military engineers…Turkish, Arab and Persian blacksmiths added to their expertise of metallurgy techniques of the Islamic East..." Last edited by Drew Hause; 04/11/10 05:58 PM. Hop To General Discussion ------ DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com DoubleGun FAQ @ doublegunshop.com DoubleGuns For Sale @ doublegun... Double Rifles, Paradox Guns &am... Classic & Custom Single Bar... German & Austrian Sporting ... DIY Gunsmithing @ doublegunshop.com Friends of the DoubleGun BBS @ ... Silent Doubles - In Memorium Gun Makers & Related Trade ...

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[Woodwright]

If anyone would like to watch a documentary on how these Damascus Barrels were made see the video below on YouTube.
Cannons Damas la Fabrication
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa9dlvRDuQU

 

[Gordoncourtney]

My Reilley did not come up on Holts but came up on Invaluable.com which many bid on , it’s just finding your way around. As of last year Holts charge around £40 a year to gain access to their archive auctions direct , but I just google to get the info I want

Invaluable.com
* E.M. REILLY & CO, LONDON A SUBSTANTIAL 12-BORE/.600 PERCUSS…
Visit
£240.00*· Brand: Holts Auctioneers
E.M. REILLY & CO, LONDON , A SUBSTANTIAL 12-BORE/.600 PERCUSSION CAPE-RIFLE FOR RENOVATION, serial no. 11864,, circa 1870, with 30in. barrels ...
* Check website for latest pricing and availability. Images may be subject to copyright. Learn moreShow in NYC

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I just clicked E M. Reilly above, as you can do , and that linked me to a full description , it’s just rooting around to get what you want Just an example to find information

it’s not circa 1870 but 1853 as on google Reilly list the serial numbers of all guns made during any one year. All very well documented Not so with others like Thomas Bland. Although it’s possible records do exist , when they were more recently bought out by an American company





Description
E.M. REILLY & CO, LONDON

A SUBSTANTIAL 12-BORE/.600 PERCUSSION CAPE-RIFLE FOR RENOVATION, serial no. 11864,
circa 1870, with 30in. barrels (stripped of finish, pitted), broad matted top-rib (lifting), dove-tailed fore-sight, rear-sight of four folding leaves and a standing notch, traces of makers details at rib-end, platinum plugs, long borderline and scroll engraved top-tang, borderline and scroll engraved bar-action locks signed 'E.M. REILLY & CO', sliding safes forwards of the moulded and engraved dolphin headed hammers, chequered walnut highly figured pistol-grip half-stock (large inlet repair to left hand side of fore-end), iron furniture (cleaned and shallow pitted) and replacement brass tipped wood ramrod, weight approximately 11lbs.