Grandpa's Cannon -- Need Some Advice

[adiochiro3]

My dad inherited this cannon and has repeatedly asked me to help him fire it (blanks, not projectiles). Working with my muzzleloader and hanging out on this forum has got me interested as well.

Of course, my #1 priority is safety. My only goal is to make a little noise & smoke. There are no maker's marks of any kind on the barrel or the carriage. Specifications:

Bore is 0.50
Barrel length is 6" not counting the finial
Cannon is either brass or bronze
Cannon base is 2" wide tapering to 1" at the muzzle
Carriage is 12" x 5.5"

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My questions are:

1. Any chance anyone can guess at the make, manufacture date range, or anything at all about the origins of this cannon?

2. How do I evaluate this thing for safety? I plan to clean the barrel and drop my bore light down to see what I can see.

3. I assume this cannon has essentially no value (except sentimental); however, I also know that removing patina is often a no-no. What say y'all?

4. The muzzle has some sort of paint or stain on it (see pix). Should I remove that regardless of the answer to question #3?

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5. As you can see in the above picture, the carriage is missing a wheel. Should I turn one to match, or replace all of the wheels?

6. The carriage has chips and worn paint. Refresh and restore, or leave it alone?

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7. Assuming it is safe, what would be an appropriate charge of Pyrodex RS?

Thanks for your help!

 

[flintlock75]

Nice little cannon.
It appears to have been profesionaly made. it looks like a line gun from the 1880s in design but they were much larger than yours. I would clean it up, make a new wheel to replace the lost one. Take it out to a safe place and load it up, i would use a fuse so you can be at a safe distance when it fires, i would bet that 50 grains of RS would make a good boom.If you want to proof it use 150 grains and a paper wad. It should hold up fine if there are no unseen flaws in the metal. It looks like it has been shot in the past. Just be careful about what you are doing and where you are shooting.

 

[adiochiro3]

Thanks, Flint!

It definitely has been shot -- dad remembers 4th of July & New Years events with it.

I already have some fuse from a friend of mine; I really don't want to stand right next to it if/when we set it off. I was planning to create a small concrete/earthen bunker for the first few "shots" just to be extra cautious.

What do you mean by "proofing" it? Is that how I determine whether it's safe?

Thanks!

James

 

[freekforge]

proofing is where you use a huge load to make sure it wont blow with a normal load. i usually use 2.5 to 3 times the normal load

 

[Mort Scott]

I would not change a thing, just make another wheel as close to shape as others.The stain on barel is hard to tell. could be an inclusion when canon was made and years later starts staining the bronze or brass. My guess it's bronze because of patina. enjoy it.

 

[54ball]

Please use real BP in it. Pyrodex has some corrosion issues. Its fine for a modern made hunting rifle but for such a heirloom, why take a chance?

 

[rduncan]

54ball is correct about Pyrodex. Its advantage is that it is less fouling than BP, but it's more corrosive. Besides, everyone loves the smell of BP in the morning...

 

[TheDoubleD]

Proofing is not just putting in a huge charge, firing and seeing if the gun blew up.

A proof charge is a very specific charge calculated to create a very specific pressure. After which the gun is measured to determine if expansion has taken place. British standard is to proof with a load that has pressure of 125% of working pressure. American pressures standard range from 140% to 170% of working pressures depending on cartridge. That is smokeless standards for cartridge arms. I have never seen a standard established for black powder. I can't imagine a blackpowder standard being higher.

The barrel appears to be commercially made bronze barrel. DO NOT POLISH! wipe it down with oil. If you polish it, you will damage it and destroy the patination that gives the barrel its character and makes it look old.

DO NOT use Pyrodex in a bronze gun. The powder fouling is corrosive and especially corrosive toward the copper alloys such as bronze. The corrosion attacks the materials used in the alloy like zinc and can cause the metal to break down. You cannot stop it and firing impregnates the metal surface with the corrosive matter.

The stain on the barrel is a stain and is part of the character of the Grampa's gun, leave it alone.

Make a new wheel.Don't sand down or repaint the charrige,leave it as it is. Clean the barrel and the wood carriage with an antique restorer like Kramer's.

 

[cynthialee]

This is just a tiny, desk/ornamental cannon right?

If I had something like that I'd want it as shiney and purty as possible.
But I am the type of gal who would polish old heirloom silver. I don't like patina. I like sparkely. :grin:

 

[Rifleman1776]

I would remove the paint smear.
Yes, do turn replacement wheels. Look for wear marks to determine original diameter.
Try to determine what shape of wood or iron supported the breech and try to recreate.
Do not try to repair any of the wood chips or marks.
Yes, do shoot blanks. I have a 1/2" bore cannon about that size but forget what amount of bp I used to shoot from it. It takes a fair amount to get a loud report with blank loads.
I have a ca. 1800 signal cannon (1" bore) I need to post. Your post reminded me.
And, one other thing: Enjoy. :thumbsup:

 

[Coot]

The gun looks like late 19th or early 20th century work. Many were made by hobbyists & are completely unidentified. There is a collector market for miniature cannon so do not assume that it is of sentimental value only. As a collector piece, do not replace any original parts unless absolutely necessary - a replacement (made to match the originals) wheel is better than none but to replace the other 3 will hurt value. A little Briwax will not hurt the carriage & will help blend in chips/scratches. It appears that there is/was some form (perhaps missing a part or two) of mechanical elevation control. As mentioned in an earlier post, it looks like a model version of a Lyle line throwing gun as used by the coastal lifesaving service to shoot a rope from shore to a stranded ship. A neat little piece. :thumbsup:

 

[wmaser]

If you are trying to make a big bang, the way you load it is probably more important than how much powder you load it with. Pour 50 gr. of black powder in and fire it and you'll likely get a pooffhh and a lot of smoke. Pour 50 gr. of black powder in, followed by a paper wad and tamp it in real well. Now you'll get a boom when you fire it. If you were to load with a projectile, you'll get a bigger boom.

 

[adiochiro3]

The gun looks like late 19th or early 20th century work. Many were made by hobbyists & are completely unidentified. (Seems to fit this category) There is a collector market for miniature cannon so do not assume that it is of sentimental value only. As a collector piece, do not replace any original parts unless absolutely necessary - a replacement (made to match the originals) wheel is better than none but to replace the other 3 will hurt value. (I suspected as much) A little Briwax will not hurt the carriage & will help blend in chips/scratches. It appears that there is/was some form (perhaps missing a part or two) of mechanical elevation control. (yes, a metal through rod that would control elevation is missing -- I'm assuming it should be identical to the axles.) As mentioned in an earlier post, it looks like a model version of a Lyle line throwing gun as used by the coastal lifesaving service to shoot a rope from shore to a stranded ship. A neat little piece. :thumbsup:

Thanks for the advice. I think it's a pretty cool piece too, especially after some poking around on the internet and seeing some of the kit prices! :shocked2:

 

[TheDoubleD]

This is just a tiny, desk/ornamental cannon right?

If I had something like that I'd want it as shiney and purty as possible.
But I am the type of gal who would polish old heirloom silver. I don't like patina. I like sparkely. :grin:

Polishing brass removes metal, round share edges and blurs markings and shouldn't be done.
Heirloom silver should be polished, bronze cannons should not.

 

[Story]

5. As you can see in the above picture, the carriage is missing a wheel. Should I turn one to match, or replace all of the wheels?

I'd vote to remove the original three wheels and two axles, fit a pair of replacement axles onto a new set of wheels.
Check your PMs, I think I found a set on ebay that would suit your needs.

 

[adiochiro3]

I'd vote to remove the original three wheels and two axles, fit a pair of replacement axles onto a new set of wheels.
Check your PMs, I think I found a set on ebay that would suit your needs.

Thanks Story, but I have a lathe and would rather make a matching one or make all four myself. I think I will just make one replacement for now.

 

[johncodyhall]

Let me suggest you be very conservative with wadding. Excessive wadding is a common factor in burst guns. Yes, the black powder charge (only) doesn't make a good bang, but a relatively small wad makes a lot of difference. I would discourage any wad longer than the diameter of the bore. One cringes to hear stories of people pounding wet newspaper or such in pursuit of a bigger bag. If you want a bigger bang, buy a bigger gun - of modern manufacture

Better yet, try dried grits, which won't pack and cause over pressures. Also disappears after you shoot and doesn't make a mess like paper.

 

[adiochiro3]

Let me suggest you be very conservative with wadding. Excessive wadding is a common factor in burst guns. Yes, the black powder charge (only) doesn't make a good bang, but a relatively small wad makes a lot of difference. I would discourage any wad longer than the diameter of the bore. One cringes to hear stories of people pounding wet newspaper or such in pursuit of a bigger bag. If you want a bigger bang, buy a bigger gun - of modern manufacture

Better yet, try dried grits, which won't pack and cause over pressures. Also disappears after you shoot and doesn't make a mess like paper.

Thanks for the thoughts. I think my cannon might prefer polenta, though! :grin: Seriously, I like the grits idea for wadding.

 

[kaintuck]

overpacking = pipe bomb :shocked2:

BP is a VERY high explosive when handled wrong~ desk or bookshelf ornament in my estimation~

wheel replacement, and no cleanning at all if she was mine~