Great Great Grandfather's Manton Shotgun London or Belgium?

[Brian Knollenberg]

Hi Folks,

I have a family heirloom old Manton marked (on locks) percussion shotgun passed down from my GG Grandfather who immigrated from NW Germany (Oldenberg) in the 1860s. Based on where he lived, I assume the shotgun is of Belgian origin, but took some photos in hopes someone who knows far more than I do can help confirm that one way or the other. I took photos of the maker stamps under the barrel and the London Fancy Twist engraving on-top of the barrel. The barrel key caps appear to be silver and there is a small silver plate on the bottom of the buttstock (assumed for initials to be engraved). Let me know if you would like photos of anything else.

This was a farm gun in the mid-west and in overall poor condition. The stock is broken and held together only by the trigger guard. One hammer does not appear to match the gun, etc. It would be nice to return this at least to original configuration, clean and protect it from further degradation. Any help with the following would be appreciated:

1) What glue is recommended to repair the stock?
2) Most of the iron work is engraved, so I am assuming the hammer with the engraving is original and the one with file marks is some sort of local repair job. Does anyone have ideas on where I might find a correct original left hammer?
3) The stock is covered in various contamination (glue, paint, dirt, etc.) any ideas on how to eliminate that without totally destroying the patina?
4) I assume the ramrod once had a metal end-cap as there is a pin going through it, but no cap present. Any leads on that?
4) Any other recommendations you can offer on protecting it or photos of what it should look like, etc.?

Thanks in advance!

 

[SOLANCO]

Joseph Manton 1766-1835 was a British gun maker with an excellent reputation for quality and innovation. His guns bring respectable prices. You may want to consider a professional restoration.

 

[Sparkitoff]

I have a book, The Manton's: Gunmakers. There were a few generations and brothers that engaged in rivalry - but all in the gun trade. All of the references to shop addresses were London or the surrounding areas. I don't see a shop address in Birmingham, and certainly not Belgium. I do notice some of the proof marks in the book are Birmingham but this is attributed to out-sourced barrels. Joseph Manton had employed Purdey, Boss, Lancaster, Moore and others who went to to make a brand-names in the gunmaking world.

 

[user 48679]

I don't see any Belgian proof marks that would have been stamped into the metal if the barrels were either made, exported or imported to/from Belgium - which means it's a gennie.

Paint spots don't usually penetrate the wood (pores), but lay atop the wood/finish - so they can usually be removed one at a time with some careful/slow handiwork - I use wooden tongue depressors, cut on a bias to provide a sharp edge for scraping (wooden popsicle stick can also work, once so cut)

An application of Howard's Feed-N-Wax or Renaissance Wax will do wonders for the stock's scuff marks, etc

 

[Sparkitoff]

You can send that hammer to Charles Lee in Ione, CA and he will match the engraving exactly - He is a former Purdey engraver and specializes in rose and scroll, among other engraving.

The 14 is probably the gauge. There are black powder proofs. Possibly a re-proof as well. No. 1 usually refers to the gun # of a pair or trio. I have seen it referring to the barrel (as in Right #1, Left #2 and even the customer order if they ordered more than one gun at once). The barrel maker is usually just 2 initials, so the name could be a merchant, or something to do with the re-proof and someone that worked on it independently.

 

[Brian Knollenberg]

I don't see any Belgian proof marks that would have been stamped into the metal if the barrels were either made, exported or imported to/from Belgium - which means it's a gennie.

Paint spots don't usually penetrate the wood (pores), but lay atop the wood/finish - so they can usually be removed one at a time with some careful/slow handiwork - I use wooden tongue depressors, cut on a bias to provide a sharp edge for scraping (wooden popsicle stick can also work, once so cut)

An application of Howard's Feed-N-Wax or Renaissance Wax will do wonders for the stock's scuff marks, etc

Thanks for the idea. I have popsicle sticks and some Renaissance Wax, so I'll try that first. I didn't know if 0000 steel wool was recommended or not.

 

[Brian Knollenberg]

You can send that hammer to Charles Lee in Ione, CA and he will match the engraving exactly - He is a former Purdey engraver and specializes in rose and scroll, among other engraving.

The 14 is probably the gauge. There are black powder proofs. Possibly a re-proof as well. No. 1 usually refers to the gun # of a pair or trio. I have seen it referring to the barrel (as in Right #1, Left #2 and even the customer order if they ordered more than one gun at once). The barrel maker is usually just 2 initials, so the name could be a merchant, or something to do with the re-proof and someone that worked on it independently.

I do see the name Rose's or Bose's or something to that effect on the barrel. I also notice some letters on the opposite barrel that might say the same name where the two barrels are joined.

 

[R Ellis]

Google proof marks and you will find which proof house and the bore and choke and year and month it was proofed Its not hard to find on internet I just did my old sxs so try it

 

[Brian Knollenberg]

Google proof marks and you will find which proof house and the bore and choke and year and month it was proofed Its not hard to find on internet I just did my old sxs so try it

Using this site: Proof mark dates for British Guns it appears to have Birmingham barrels manufactured between 1855 - 1868

proof house and the bore and choke and year and month it was proofed

 

[Brian Knollenberg]

I have a book, The Manton's: Gunmakers. There were a few generations and brothers that engaged in rivalry - but all in the gun trade. All of the references to shop addresses were London or the surrounding areas. I don't see a shop address in Birmingham, and certainly not Belgium. I do notice some of the proof marks in the book are Birmingham but this is attributed to out-sourced barrels. Joseph Manton had employed Purdey, Boss, Lancaster, Moore and others who went to to make a brand-names in the gunmaking world.

There were knock-off Mantons being made in Belgium in the 1800s. They were not bad guns, but not a nice as the real thing.

 

[jimhallam]

14 bore British proofs -- Steindlers "The Standard Directory of Proof marks" ISBN 0-89149-006-X and Library of Congress # 75-11048 is one of the best references.
At that time the barrels were made and submitted "unfinished" and marked with the GAUGE and collected by the barrel maker to be sent for finishing. That's why - especially for MUSKETS -- similar ones might have different "calibres" depending upon the state of the tooling used by the barrel maker.
The "crown over curly BP" is the PROVISIONAL (first) proof and the "crossed swords with letters" is the DEFINITIVE (final) mark.

 

[Doc]

The proof marks are from The Birmingham Proof House.
Apparently the barrels are from 1855 to 1868.
Doc,

 

[Flintfan69]

This is a hardware store quality gun with a Manton name on it. Knock off "Manton's" were not only made in Belgium, but in Birmingham as well. Interestingly enough Joseph Manton went bankrupt fighting trade infringement on his name during his lifetime, and died with practically nothing.

Honestly it is not worth restoring, but do protect and enjoy it for it's family significance. Many times you can remove paint spots by very carefully shaving them off with the edge of a razor blade. Beyond that, wax the stock, oil the metal work and set it aside to admire.

 

[Brian Knollenberg]

This is a hardware store quality gun with a Manton name on it. Knock off "Manton's" were not only made in Belgium, but in Birmingham as well. Interestingly enough Joseph Manton went bankrupt fighting trade infringement on his name during his lifetime, and died with practically nothing.

Honestly it is not worth restoring, but do protect and enjoy it for it's family significance. Many times you can remove paint spots by very carefully shaving them off with the edge of a razor blade. Beyond that, wax the stock, oil the metal work and set it aside to admire.

A hardware store gun sounds most appropriate. My family have been farmers for a long time in Germany, and continued doing so until very recently when we came to the US. This shotgun put food on the table and killed varmints that threatened livestock or were "grazing" in the garden. It stood in a coat closet next to a 1912 manufacturing date Remington model 12A .22 which my great grand father purchased for my grandfather. Four generations of my family learned to shoot with that old .22. I now have both of these family heirlooms and just want to make sure they can be passed down 4 more generations. I still shoot the .22, but this "Manton" is certainly a wall hanger.

 

[GREENSWLDE]

The word ROSE 8 "May" refer to ROSE TWIST with 8 RIBBONS making up the strip. The strip was then rolled around a Mandrel to make the tube before hammer welding.. The twist can't be seen owing to past rusting. If a small section normally out of sight were polished,the twist "May" be seen ?? O.D.

 

[Brian Knollenberg]

The word ROSE 8 "May" refer to ROSE TWIST with 8 RIBBONS making up the strip. The strip was then rolled around a Mandrel to make the tube before hammer welding.. The twist can't be seen owing to past rusting. If a small section normally out of sight were polished,the twist "May" be seen ?? O.D.

Thanks for that. I might try cleaning up something on the bottom of the barrel to see if any twisting becomes visible. any recommendations for how to approach that?

 

[fleener]

I was thinking that someone once told me that Rose is a barrel maker? I have a unmarked English Sporting Rifle in 12 bore that has Rose stamped on the bottom of the barrels.

Fleener

 

[Brian Knollenberg]

I was thinking that someone once told me that Rose is a barrel maker? I have a unmarked English Sporting Rifle in 12 bore that has Rose stamped on the bottom of the barrels.

Fleener

I found this on another sight today: https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=368613

"ROSE'S were Rose Brothers Gun and Pistol Barrel Makers of 13 Newton Street, Birmingham and Hales Owen Mills and Forge (1860-70) Miss R. Rose, agent, 13 Newton Street (1864-70)

Aaron Rose had been granted British Patent 13,299 of 24th October 1850 for making twisted iron barrels.