Green River Rifle Works Leman Trade Gun

[cannonball1]

Somewhere in the 80's or later the corporation I was working for was sending a couple machinists to the nearly broke GRRW's to purchase a used large lathe they were selling. Having purchased a couple of the early barrels in the past I asked them to buy a barrel for me if they had any left. When they came back they handed me a 45 caliber barrel 36" long and said enjoy, it was the last barrel they had. I said how much and he told me they just gave it to them - no charge. They didn't even purchase the lathe from them either. I made a gun out of that 45 caliber and in Utah in that caliber you cannot shoot a round ball for deer. My wife drew for a ML Deer hunt and we found for some reason that gun was a tack driver with an elongated bullet. Guess I should find out the twist. Here is the deer she shot with that gun. It may have been old GRRW's last barrel made.

 

[gifford7]

You're welcome, Falconer.

Found this in my husbands closet

 

[gifford7]

You're right, Buck, but that is just part of the story.

Charles Hunter & Company was the outfit that Neil Fields worked for in Australia. It was owned by Mal Wade. Mal Wade/Charles Hunter & Company had been an agent of GRRW for several years before GRRW went bankrupt. Here is a price list for the Charles Hunter & Company from the late 1970s.

View attachment 59347

Another person that worked at Charles Hunter & Company and received some gun building training from Neil was Alan Vaisham.

After GRRW of Roosevelt, Utah went bankrupt in 1980, Mal Wade adopted the name for his company in Australia in about 1982.

Alan Vaisham took over Green River Rifle Works of Australia in 1984/85 and continued to operate it until he retired and closed the shop in 2016.

View attachment 59348
View attachment 59349

 

[Okurok]

That's a mighty nice find. Are y'all looking to sell them? I'd be interested

 

[Herb]

Somewhere in the 80's or later the corporation I was working for was sending a couple machinists to the nearly broke GRRW's to purchase a used large lathe they were selling. Having purchased a couple of the early barrels in the past I asked them to buy a barrel for me if they had any left. When they came back they handed me a 45 caliber barrel 36" long and said enjoy, it was the last barrel they had. I said how much and he told me they just gave it to them - no charge. They didn't even purchase the lathe from them either. I made a gun out of that 45 caliber and in Utah in that caliber you cannot shoot a round ball for deer. My wife drew for a ML Deer hunt and we found for some reason that gun was a tack driver with an elongated bullet. Guess I should find out the twist. Here is the deer she shot with that gun. It may have been old GRRW's last barrel made.View attachment 215029

Cannonball1, you can use a .45 round ball for deer in Utah. The game regs read "At least .40 caliber to hunt big game, with a bullet 130 grains or heavier for deer and pronghorn". A .440 ball weighs 128 grains so the next larger size is legal, a .445, which Track of the Wolf sells. I had the same problem when I built a Leman Trade rifle in .45 caliber in GRRW's shop in 1978. I wanted to hunt elk with it, but the ball weight must be at least 210 grains for elk in Utah. So I had a friend fit a .54 caliber barrel to that Leman. This was before I could do it myself. That is a very nice picture of a mule deer buck you posted.

 

[cannonball1]

Herb, The round balls I had for that gun lacked the 130 grains needed for deer. My wife couldn't handle the 11 lb. Hawken, but she could handle the 7 1/2 lb. Leman and to top it off, it was a tack driver with the elongated bullets. A friend had been using these bullets in a unmentionable ML. Remember GRRW gave me this barrel and said it was the last barrel they had. I have never checked the twist on that barrel and need to do so, but it was a tack driver with the elongated bullets. I was certainly surprised when it shot as good as it did, with what I thought was a 1 in 60" twist. I had the tri-pod, a friend had a range finder, one shot in the cactus, rocks and scrub juniper and the deer went straight down. She had the fun and we dragged all of the hair off of the animal getting it out.

 

[cannonball1]

gifford 7, What a find. Cool.

 

[TDM]

Wow, those are nice @gifford7

 

[Hiverano]

Bob,

The old gunsmiths of Green River Rifle Works (four members: Doc White, Carl Walker, Les Bennett, and Ron Paull) have had dreams of starting to build the same model guns of the past history. I talked Doc into having those interested start a new firm, setup a little different than the previous one, now called "Green River Rifle Works Collectors Association" - "GRRW.CA" for the short version. I got stuck (not really, enjoyed every minute), my job was to handle the paperwork, talk to the customers, assign them a custom muzzleloading gunsmith that would build them their firearm, and chase parts when needed. Chasing parts as time went on has become a problem, the COVID-19 affair is the issue, manufacturers can't get their people to come back to work in some cases - easier to stay home get paid than go to work is what we have been told.

Anyway, we opened the doors on new firm on Jan 2nd, 2017, with an order for a H.E. Leman Trade Rifle being built be Carl Walker (just like what happened with the original firm GRRW - same gun, same smith). In the fall of 2022 Doc White passed and everyone decide we need a break. We have closed down for a little while but in 5 years the four smiths built over 110 weapons, pretty good for guys close to or over 80 years of age with the same or better skills than before.

We're talking NW Trade Guns here, so I'll share this one with you along with how this all came about, see:

Green River Rifle Works & Green River Rifle Works Collectors Association Guns​

This is a copy of an original 1850's NW trade gun right down to the size of the original's bore - a .50 caliber smoothbore. Hanson thought it was built to reach out (longer range) with the buffalo becoming wary of humans.

Mr. Koziol has done similar testing for me if you remember another GRRW Collectors Association gun - a J&S Hawken full stock flinter built by Carl Walker last year. Jonathan was amazed how nice that rifle turned out.

Jonathan loves to shoot and improve on the guns he has tested, that's the reason I sent this gun to him. Plus, he'll use his different great products and services to improve on what the original copy started out as.

This was a surprise to have Doc comment on someone's work like he has with Jonathan. What Doc White and I like is how he is making this information available to you guys, should be an interesting review with the addition of his videos .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​

This is the only NW Trade Gun GRRW.CA Has Built.
GRRW No.1 H.E. Leman North West Trade Gun .50cal. Did a little shooting today and had a blast! Tomorrow, I will be setting up my shooting bags and try it off something stable. Ignition was fast, trigger pull was maybe in the 3 to 4lb range. A very comfortable gun. It was weird getting used to that flat butt plate as I shoot a Hawken, but it was a nice feeling on the shoulder. I am hoping to find an accurate load out to at least 75 yards with this smoothbore and use it for a mule deer hunt in September. An extremely well put together NW gun! Doc did one heck of a job one this one!

H.E. Leman NW Trade Gun built by Doc White
GRRW.CA H.E. Leman North West Trade Gun
[GRRW.CA #NW01 DGW].


1st Shot


Fine Tuning


Making Adjustments
Shoots as expected, just need to use a little Kentucky windage,
because of not having a rear sight.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​

 

[Hiverano]

Simple answer, Jim, is yes.

The second half of the 1970s were part of the years of "stagflation". The Arab oil embargo in 1973 triggered a steady increase in oil prices that rose from $3.00 or $3.50 per barrel in the early 70s to $41 per barrel in 1981. This and the hangover of the government spending on the Vietnam War and LBJ's "War on Poverty" caused a series of recessions and double digit inflation.

Below is a graph I prepared of GRRW's historical prices for their finished Hawken and Leman rifles (both half stock models) and their Hawken and Leman kits. So yes, from 1975 to 1980, the price of a factory finish Hawken rifle more than doubled (a 125% increase). Interestingly, the price of a factory finished Leman rifle only increased 80%. Further, the price of a Hawken kit went up 34% while the Leman kit went up 24%.

There are two reasons for the differences in the increases seen in the Hawken rifles versus the Leman rifles. First and foremost, a Hawken rifle took longer to make and required more hand labor. Second, GRRW took measures to lower the cost of the Leman rifles that they didn't employ on the Hawken rifles. One of these was to outsource the shaping and inletting of the Leman stocks to Reinhart Fajan who produced a precision shaped and inlet stock that saved labor on the GRRW side.

It also appears that labor costs went up faster than material costs because the finished rifles increased at a faster rate than the kits.

View attachment 59376

The 1980 prices are as much or less that just the parts alone today.

 

[Hiverano]

From the Green River catalog: "The question of whether we could make our barrels shoot both slugs, like the minie and maxie balls also came up. After considerable research, we found that we could not do it to our satisfaction. Consequently, our barrels are made for round ball shooting only, which is why GRWW "Plum Center" barrels have seven grooves .012 thou deep for a sure grip on the patch and ball with twists of 1-60 or 75 for accurate shooting with round ball whether on target or in the field. SPECIFICATIONS: seven land and grooves of approximately same width, grooves .012 deep, twist 1-60 standard (1-75 optional-slow delivery), muzzle finish-cut and crowned, drilled and tapped for standard breech threads, available in 36 or 42 inch lengths."

Rely on this gentleman and Phil Meeks for their replies. Herb is at Carl Walkers (GRRW first employee of the firm) or Doc's place (started GRRW) monthly, and Phil has one of the largest collections of GRRW. Great sources ...

 

[brushblind]

I recently got a Green River Rifle Works Leman Trade gun in .58 cal. It has a low serial number...under 600. I've done a little research on GRRW but was wondering if anyone on the forum knows much about them. What is the rate of twist? Will it shoot balls and conicals? How do they rate as shooters? What might it be worth? etc...View attachment 23100

Does it have radius groove rifling or flat rifling? If radius, I would use patched RB, if the later, you could shoot conicals but they may not stabilize with RB twist such as 1 in 60 ect.

 

[brushblind]

My old hunting pard from Albuquerque hunted with a flint .54 fullstock GRRW Leman. Man, I loved that rifle! He was with me when horse, me, and 1/2 stock Leman pictired above took a bit of a tumble down a mountainside not far from Mt. Sheridan in SW Gila, NM. He just kinda sat there on his mule and watched! LOL! Couldn’t do much else. I miss him!

Oh my God, was the rifle OK? Just kidding!

 

[Hiverano]

I'll contact Carl Walker in Roosevelt, he has the GRRW Record Books, we'll see if the gun has any information that you're looking for.

1. radius groove rifling or flat rifling?
2. if radius, I would use patched RB, if the later, you could shoot conicals but they may not stabilize with RB twist such as 1 in 60 etc.

Can't you use a light and see what the rifling looks like, you should be able to see if its radius groove or flat rifling ...

 

[Hiverano]

Just got off the phone with Carl Walker in Roosevelt, he has the GRRW Record Books.

1. GRRW never used "radius groove rifling" only flat grooved rifling in all the builds and the kits.

2. There's a good chance that there are no records for some of the early GRRW guns as Carl didn't really pay attention to the record books until he started doing them around the 1,000 mark.

 

[Hiverano]

Bob,

The old gunsmiths of Green River Rifle Works (four members: Doc White, Carl Walker, Les Bennett, and Ron Paull) have had dreams of starting to build the same model guns of the past history. I talked Doc into having those interested start a new firm, setup a little different than the previous one, now called "Green River Rifle Works Collectors Association" - "GRRW.CA" for the short version. I got stuck (not really, enjoyed every minute), my job was to handle the paperwork, talk to the customers, assign them a custom muzzleloading gunsmith that would build them their firearm, and chase parts when needed. Chasing parts as time went on has become a problem, the COVID-19 affair is the issue, manufacturers can't get their people to come back to work in some cases - easier to stay home get paid than go to work is what we have been told.

Anyway, we opened the doors on new firm on Jan 2nd, 2017, with an order for a H.E. Leman Trade Rifle being built be Carl Walker (just like what happened with the original firm GRRW - same gun, same smith). In the fall of 2022 Doc White passed and everyone decide we need a break. We have closed down for a little while but in 5 years the four smiths built over 110 weapons, pretty good for guys close to or over 80 years of age with the same or better skills than before.

We're talking NW Trade Guns here, so I'll share this one with you along with how this all came about, see:

Green River Rifle Works & Green River Rifle Works Collectors Association Guns​

This is a copy of an original 1850's NW trade gun right down to the size of the original's bore - a .50 caliber smoothbore. Hanson thought it was built to reach out (longer range) with the buffalo becoming wary of humans.

Mr. Koziol has done similar testing for me if you remember another GRRW Collectors Association gun - a J&S Hawken full stock flinter built by Carl Walker last year. Jonathan was amazed how nice that rifle turned out.

Jonathan loves to shoot and improve on the guns he has tested, that's the reason I sent this gun to him. Plus, he'll use his different great products and services to improve on what the original copy started out as.

This was a surprise to have Doc comment on someone's work like he has with Jonathan. What Doc White and I like is how he is making this information available to you guys, should be an interesting review with the addition of his videos .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​

This is the only NW Trade Gun GRRW.CA Has Built.
GRRW No.1 H.E. Leman North West Trade Gun .50cal. Did a little shooting today and had a blast! Tomorrow, I will be setting up my shooting bags and try it off something stable. Ignition was fast, trigger pull was maybe in the 3 to 4lb range. A very comfortable gun. It was weird getting used to that flat butt plate as I shoot a Hawken, but it was a nice feeling on the shoulder. I am hoping to find an accurate load out to at least 75 yards with this smoothbore and use it for a mule deer hunt in September. An extremely well put together NW gun! Doc did one heck of a job one this one!

H.E. Leman NW Trade Gun built by Doc White
GRRW.CA H.E. Leman North West Trade Gun
[GRRW.CA #NW01 DGW].


1st Shot


Fine Tuning


Making Adjustments
Shoots as expected, just need to use a little Kentucky windage,
because of not having a rear sight.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​

This is a GRRW Collectors Association Serial Number NW #01, (the first firearm Doc White built for either GRRW or GRRW.CA. His old firm never ever had a Doc White build). That being said, I'm told this NW H.E. Leman North West Trade Gun (GRRW.CA #NW #01 DGW) is a rare piece to own. Rare or not we decided to have Jonathan take it apart, look at how everything was done, Then shoot the gun and make a report of his findings. It performed as expected and did well using the tang screw slot as a back sight (no rear sight like the original). Video shows how well it performed, just need a little Kentucky windage. Fun project built by a master.

 

[Hiverano]

GRRW rifles were strictly roundball rifles. I would expect a .58 to be a 1-66 twist. They had seven lands and grooves. Their barrels were known for their accuracy. Shooting a conical out of it would be sacrilege.

I talk to Carl Walker (GRRW's first employee) every other week, he told me as Phil will that the GRRW guns were meant to shoot round balls. Every GRRW gun barrel has flat groove rifling. Several have mentioned round groove rifling, Carl told me if the barrel has this rifling, it's not a GRRW product (have seen several copies that smiths have produced) and tried to pass them off as GRRW. Sad someone just got screwed .... If you have a question on GRRW or GRRW Collector Association guns, contact me and I will call Carl for what's correct. When still in business we were one of three dealers for Doc's guns in northern Colorado, buy, sell or trade, they were the best money could buy in those days.

 

[springfield art]

I recently got a Green River Rifle Works Leman Trade gun in .58 cal. It has a low serial number...under 600. I've done a little research on GRRW but was wondering if anyone on the forum knows much about them. What is the rate of twist? Will it shoot balls and conicals? How do they rate as shooters? What might it be worth? etc...View attachment 23100

These guns are highly sought after; do lots of homework. Handsome is as handsome does.

 

[Bushfire]

I have a couple of Australian made GRRW guns. My leman trade is my favourite hunting gun.

 

[Hiverano]

You guys asked about how actuate the GRRW guns were, not bragging but these guns were the best you could find for the money.

In 1974 at the Colorado State Muzzleloading Association Championships in Leadville CO. The State Shoot Committee setup a range for testing just that, who's manufactured gun (no more than $600.00 retail) shot the best. The targets weren't set at normal distances all of us were used to shooting. A dozen targets were set from 15 yards all the way to 265 yards (the steel targets heights varied from 8 to 14 inches). Rules stated you couldn't clean your weapon once you started on the course, all shots were off hand, free standing position and so on. Every target had to be hit, a miss would put the brakes on - you're out of the contest.

Over twenty shooters joined in, men, women, children and a large number of watchers (probably most of the camp). Many dropped out or got eliminated after just a few targets. TC's and GRRW guns were the last bunch still in the contest, a few members of our muzzleloading club were still in at the 8th target 2/3's the way up the hill (175 yards or so). The guns being shot at this distance were TC's (.54 caliber) and GRRW (.54 and .58 caliber) guns. As the number of shooters dropped with misses it ended up with two shooters left. Both from the same club, Buckhorn Skinners of Masonville CO. Bob Williams shooting a TC .54 caliber and myself using a GRRW Leman in .58 caliber. We ended up at the 265-yard target, both hitting at this distance for 4 shots each with no misses. Finally, we tossed a coin and Bob won .... tomorrow is another day I told myself ... This happened several times at different events, yes Bob Williams and yours truly had some good times.

By the way after several of these matches Bob traded me his TC for a GRRW Hawken 1/2 stock in .58 caliber. these guns were unreal for hitting what you aimed at, no baloney.