grouping shots

[Jaeger]

Okay, fellas....
I finished building my TOTW Dickert .50 cal this summer and have taken it to the range several times. After these two trips, it is becoming apparent that I may have to LEARN to shoot this gun. Some of my shots have a very short lag time between primer and main charge ignition, and others a bit longer, but none are real long, but nevertheless........ Is there something I could do to make these more consistent? Also, so far I'm not grouping the shots really well, and some of the shots are real "flyers"...way off to one side.I'm shooting .490 round balls patched with muslin. Should I try a .495 ball to fit the bore tighter? Another problem I'm having is seeing the front sight clearly...I'm 61 yrs old and the distance makes the sight picture a little fuzzy, not like my TC Renegade with a much shorter barrel, which is quite good. Any suggestions, general or otherwise, that you might have would be appreciated. I'd like to nail a buck this fall...

 

[Zonie]

You didn't mention the size of the touch hole but it should be at least 1/16 inch diameter.
If it is you may consider enlarging it to 5/64 (.078).

You may try using a unbent paper clip to pick the charge thru the vent hole after ramming the ball.
That sometimes creates a short path into the main powder charge to allow the pans flash to heat up more grains of powder.

Yes, I know. Some folks say they don't do this but it has been done throughout history for a reason and the reason is it often helps speed up ignition.

Your patches should be telling you whether they are working alright.
If they are not burned or ripped or torn they are probably fine.

The flyers may be due to your not holding thru the shot. That is to say, you may be unknowingly moving the gun while it is in the process of firing.

Your vision is most likely the real source of your problems with grouping the shots.

Without being able to clearly see the front sight there is no way for you to accurately aim your gun.

Go down to the local drug store and buy some 1 or 1 1/2 diopter reading glasses. The cheap $10 kind, not the expensive ones.

Do not buy the stronger power lenses. They will make distant objects very fuzzy.
You want the weakest reading glasses you can get that will do the job of making that front sight crystal clear.

Wear these when you go shooting again.
I'm betting that the front sight will look very clear and crisp and allow you to reduce the group size down to what it needs to be.

Have fun.

 

[chuckpa]

Good advice on the Glasses Zonie. I use 250 reading glasses but go to 125 for shooting and that really clears up the front sight.

 

[Melton Kidd]

After you try the glasses like Zonie said, practise dryfiring. Use a piece of wood or a rubber eraser in the cock (hammer). Hold the sight picture for several seconds after the cock has fallen. When you are shooting live ammunition, come back to the sight picture after the rifle has fired. And above all else concentrate on the front sight. I like to think of the rear sight as a window and look through it at the front sight. If you concentrate on the front sight your eye will center the front sight in the rear notch without effort on your part. Do this after the rifle has fired before you lower it. (come back to the sight picture after the rifle has fired. Some weight training will help with this.

 

[rabjr]

Okay, fellas....
I finished building my TOTW Dickert .50 cal this summer and have taken it to the range several times. After these two trips, it is becoming apparent that I may have to LEARN to shoot this gun. Some of my shots have a very short lag time between primer and main charge ignition, and others a bit longer, but none are real long, but nevertheless........ Is there something I could do to make these more consistent? Also, so far I'm not grouping the shots really well, and some of the shots are real "flyers"...way off to one side.I'm shooting .490 round balls patched with muslin. Should I try a .495 ball to fit the bore tighter? Another problem I'm having is seeing the front sight clearly...I'm 61 yrs old and the distance makes the sight picture a little fuzzy, not like my TC Renegade with a much shorter barrel, which is quite good. Any suggestions, general or otherwise, that you might have would be appreciated. I'd like to nail a buck this fall...

I just shot a Doe a couple days ago with my custom .58. I do not care what anyone says, I always pick the vent after loading, my vent is 1/16 diam and I prime with 3F Swiss, basically because I happen to have it otherwise it would be any other 3F. My prime is enough to come up to the bottom of the vent, I don't bank the powder away from the vent like some folks. My load happened to be 90gr Graff 3F. In a blind, half the time it was raining of drizzling. I dumped the prime several times and reprimed through out the course of the day, just to be sure. At one point it rained so hard I had to take my orange safty vest off and wipe at least half the length of my barrel off and then propped the gun up in the corner until the rain let up. When I did shoot, I got pretty much instant ignition as all I remember was seeing the deer fall.

I shoot with both eyes open when shooting right handed which I am. I did teach myself to shoot left handed to take advantage of any and all situations I possibly could. In that case I close my right eye. Works for me.

I noticed you said you went to the range twice. I'd like to see folks do more shooting than that and get to know that gun better. Your flyers...have you checked your patches? May need a thinker patch. I don't like using anything less than .015 and prefer .018 pillow ticking. My .58 uses .024 patches. I can't ever remember seeing a flyer from that gun.

 

[miked35]

Okay, fellas....
Some of my shots have a very short lag time between primer and main charge ignition, and others a bit longer, but none are real long, but nevertheless........ Is there something I could do to make these more consistent? Also, so far I'm not grouping the shots really well, and some of the shots are real "flyers"...way off to one side.

I found the above part of your post quite interesting. Here's my thoughts on this.

With my Lehigh Valley I have always been much better at grouping my shots than with my Southern. The Lehigh Valley has very fast ignition, the Southern was like yours, some quicker than others.

Recently I drilled the touch hole to 0.0595" and also coned the inside portion of the liner. Ignition was much quicker and more consistent. After these modifications the first six shots were all tens. I figure with the slower, varying ignition I was moving off target before the gun was firing. Something to consider.

Mike

 

[MikeChapin]

I would do as Zonie advises for the touch hole. All the liners I have seen have a touch hole smaller that 1/16" Open it up to at least 1/16". If that doesn't give consistent ignition use a 50 or 51 gauge drill or go up to 5/64".

Once you get to where you can see your front sight well, work up a load. Do this on the bench so you don't have to worry about what you are doing. All you want to see is what the rifle is doing. Work up a powder/patch/ball combination that gives the tightest group at 50 yards.

Now that you know the rifle is shooting it's best you can work on your offhand skills. You will know now that all flyers will be yours and not the product of a bad load.

I work to keep the front sight on the target no matter what the rifle is doing. I hold it there until recoil changes the sight picture. It sounds easy enough but follow through is everything in shooting a flinter well. Lots of practice and dry firing will help a lot. Even after shooting flinters for over thirty years I will occasionally drop the barrel on a slight hang fire if it is towards the end of the day and I am getting tired.

 

[Jaeger]

Thanks, guys! I knew I would get a load of suggestions & advice, and sure enough......
I don't know about the reading glasses, since I already wear bifocals, but the advice is still good: maybe I need to tilt my head a little and USE those bifocals! As several of you said, I suspect I'm moving the rifle while it is firing. I've concentrated and holding through the shot and I think my grouping gets better. Nobody said anything about a .495 ball. All I know is that the ball and patch fit into the bore pretty easily and I can press them in with my finger and not use a ramroad or ball starter to get them started.

 

[lonehunter]

Try the .495 ball, mine likes them better than .490 :v

 

[Zonie]

The lower part of most bi-focal's are made for reading so they are made to focus up close within arms reach.

What I'm suggesting is to use some relatively weak glasses that will focus sharply 3-6 feet away from your eyes.

If you go to the drug store and just try some of them, looking at objects that are about 6 feet from your face you should be able to find a pair that works at that distance. Give them a try.
You may be surprised at how well they can work.

 

[fyrfyter43]

Or talk to your optometrist. Have a pair of glasses made specifically for shooting. That's what I'm planning to do after I have a cataract removed (from my non-dominant eye) next month.

 

[MikeChapin]

... Nobody said anything about a .495 ball. All I know is that the ball and patch fit into the bore pretty easily and I can press them in with my finger and not use a ramroad or ball starter to get them started.

I would say that you need a thicker patch. I missed before that you were using muslin for patching. That's probably way too thin. If you can find your patches you will probably find they are burned through and look like little black doughnuts.

You should be using at least a .015 cotton patch. What patching you use can affect your group size. A few months ago I was testing some patching on my Santa Fe. A .020 denim patch would give a 6" group at 50 yards. A .024 canvas patch shrank the group to less than an inch. On two other rifles the denim gives a group of less than an inch. Experiment and see what your rifle likes.

You don't have to use a patch/ball combination that you have to drive it down the barrel with a hammer but it should be snug and fill the rifling. All my rifles start with a slap on the short starter and go down easily once started.

 

[erzengel]

Give Zonies advice a real try.
With iron sights, that is what I do
and it works, really.

May be you need two or three
times at the range because
things nearby and further away
you may see unclear and have
to get used to it.

 

[kherring]

These are some things I have learned over time with my flintlocks that speed up ignition.
1) Always pick the vent after loading. Clearing the vent will prevent the fuze effect of powder in the vent and allow the flash to enter the main charge faster.
2) Dont let the prime cover the vent. This causes a delay as the pile of powder burns down to flash through.
3) Dont use to much priming powder. Usually 1/4 to 1/2 of a pan full is enough. Too much will cause a delay.
4) If you can, practice by flashing some powder in the pan without loading the gun. You will soon learn to ignore the flash and hold on target. These are some things that have helped me. Hope this helps.

 

[MtnMan_03]

Lots of good advice here!

One other thing I've seen people have problems with, is to make sure you have a good rest. I normally do all my sighting in from a bench rest, and once I know the gun is shooting accurately I switch to other positions.

One particular problem I've seen over and over, especially at public ranges, is people who can't get a consistent group simply because they're using an inadequate rest. One of the worst I've seen is to use the foam from out of their rifle case. More than once I've been asked how I can get my flintlock to shoot better at 100yds than guys next to me can shoot with a scoped center-fire rifle. I look at their rest and say, "here, try my sandbags". Problem solved...

If you're not already doing it, I'd make sure your using a good solid rest for the fore-end, and another sandbag under the rear of the stock. Get the rifle solid! Then, if it still groups poorly, move on through some other remedies. The thing is, I've seen some great-shooting rifles appear to be poor shooters due to using a poor rest...

 

[Billnpatti]

First, let's tackle the ignition problem. The inconsistancy that you mention sounds as if it can be cured pretty easily by pricking your touch hole every time you load so as to keep any of the charge powder from plugging the touch hole. When powder gets into the touch hole, you get a fuse effect. The flame from the pan has to burn through the powder in the touch hole before reaching the main charge. That causes a delay in the ignition of the main charge. Keep that touch hole clear.

There are many ideas on how to charge your pan correctly. I find that if I simply evenly distribute the powder in my pan, keeping the touch hole clear, I get the best results as far as consistancy of ignition is concerned. As I say, there are many ideas on how to charge your pan and this is just mine but it works for me and I am sharing it with you for whatever it's worth.

Now, as for the fliers when you are shooting. These can be caused by many different things. My first idea is that the variations in ignition time may contribute heavily to your inconsistancies on your target. As you know, when you are holding your rifle, it is never absolutley still. You are wibbling and wobbling all over the target and you just have to know when your wibbles and wobbles have you on target when you pull the trigger. If there is a delay in the ignition of your main charge, you have probably wibbled and wobbled off the bullseye by the time it goes off. That's just one possibliliy to consider.

Another thing to consider is whether your ball/patch combination is a good fit in your barrel. The fit has to be tight enough for the patch to fill the grooves and give a good spin to your ball. If you are using muslin, you may need a thicker patch. I'd recommend a material called "pocket drill". Muslin measures around .010 which is pretty thin. Pocket drill measures around .015 to .018. It will be a lot cheaper to simply go to a fabric shop and buy a 1/4 or 1/3 yard (whichever is the smallest amount they will sell. It'll only cost you a buck or so) and try that as your patch material rather than spending money on another box of balls that may or may not work well in your rifle.

Another thing that you didn't mention is whether you are using pre-cut patches or if you are cutting them at the muzzle. When you cut your patches at the muzzle, you get an evenly located patch on the ball. In other words, the ball is nicely centered on the patch. It is important to have the ball nicely centered on your patch. If you use pre-cut patches, you have to be careful to make sure that the ball is correctly centered on your patch when you load it. Off center patches can cause fliers.

You didn't mention what you are using for a patch lube. Sometimes changing what you use for a lube will either improve or worsen the accuracy of your rifle. However, if you try a different patch material, do not change your lube until you know how the new patch material effects your accuracy. Change only one thing at a time or you won't know where you are when things worsen or improve.

These are just as few of my thoughts on the subject. They're free and worth every bit of it. :haha:

 

[Billnpatti]

Oh, Jaeger, I forgot to address the fuzzy front sight question. With properly prescribed glasses that give you good distant vision, you should have no problem seeing the front sight clearly. The big problem is that as we age our vision deteriorates due to a condition called presbiopia. I think I spelled that correctly. Anyway, with age, it becomes harder and harder for us to focus on three planes at once. In fact, even the youngest eyes cannot do it either. The advantage they have is that they are better able to focus back and forth from one plane to another far more quickly than you or I (I'm 69 years old). One thing we can do to help improve our ability to see the sights is to move the rear sight forward on the barrel. Sometimes you can run across an old timer who has owned a certain rifle for many years and if you look at the top of his barrel, you will see many dovetail repairs where he has had to move his rear sight forward incrementally over the years to accommodate the changes in his vision. If you have a spare rear sight of any kind, you can use some double stick tape to stick a little piece of wood to the bottom of it. You want just enough to raise it up above your existing rear sight so you can see it when looking down your barrel. A piece of ice cream stick is usually enough. Now, place your rifle in a secure manner so you can see down the barrel just as if you are sighting it at a target. Put the spare rear sight on the top of the barrel just in front of the existing rear sight. Sight down the barrel at the spare sight and front sight just as if you were sighting the rifle. Move it forward slowly until your sights become clear (or as clear as they are going to get). Mark that spot on your barrel. Repeat this a few times until you have the best spot located. Now, take your rifle to a gunsmith and have him cut a new sight dovetail at this spot. He can also, put a patch on the original dovetail. I'd expect that having this done by a gunsmith wouldn't cost much more than $25 to $30 and will make a world of difference in how easy it is to sight your gun.

Finally, you can go to a tang peep sight. Given the style of your rifle, this is the least tasteful option but a peepsight sure makes it a LOT easier to see everything more clearly. It's dang near like having a 1X scope on your rifle. Just a thought. If tang sights are of any interest, you may find this website to be a good read. http://www.bpcr.net/index-a.htm Scroll down to the bottom to the article on using tang sights.

 

[hognut]

I recently started shooting a flint muzzleloader.
I have been shooting for many years mostly shot gun, scoped rifles. The open sights on the ml was a problem as the eyes aren't what they they once were.

I went to Decot Shooting Glasses and gave them my prescription for that eye only (left) they placed it on the glass so when my head is on the stock I can see the front sight. I can see too about 50 yards, at 100 it is still good but a little fuzzy. hognut

 

[mazo kid]

I haven't tried this yet, but have read and heard about this method....punch a small hole in a piece of electrical tape and stick this to your glasses. Kind of like a camera lens, sharpens your focus. Or so it goes....anyway it is a cheap fix until something better comes along.

 

[Billnpatti]

Mazo,

The electrical tape thing does work quite well as long as you can get the tape positioned on your lenses so you can see through the darned hole. Also, hole diameter is something that you have to fiddle with. But once everything comes together, it works like a dream. They make a doo-hicky that sticks to your glases lens with a suction cup and has an adjustable pinhole. Kind of expensive but it works well, too.

I had forgotten to include these in my answer, Thanks for adding it. :thumbsup: