GRRW .58Cal ball size

[Crockford]

I have recently acquired a GRRW Hawken in .58Cal. I don't have any moulds in this caliber range except a .575 minie. I feel it would be an abomination to shoot those out of it. The .575 minie mics at .580 and slides to the bottom of the barrel with no resistance. My gun is H-135 so is pretty early in GRRW barrel making history. I know every barrel is a one off. I have also read a GRRW manual that states .562 for .58cal barrels. I have also read here where a lot of .58cal shooters are shooting .562 and a thick patch.
I'm trying to keep from buying several different moulds and would like to hear from someone who has experience with GRRW in .58cal.
No information from the previous owner is available.
I'm thinking .570 your thoughts/experiences please.

 

[Dan O]

Hello,

I have a GRRW Leman in 58. I used .570 cast from a Lyman mold with pillow ticking. It's a tight fit but works. I also use a .562 ball and it also shoots good and for hunting I prefer this to the .570 for ease of loading in the field.

The medium load for the 58 according to the paperwork GRRW sent with my rifle shows a MEDIUM of 175 grains of 2F with a velocity of 1750 FPS. With this load using Goex 2F it would hit dead on at 100 yards. With good accuracy. I have yet to chronograph it so I have no idea of the velocity. I just bought a Labrador so it's on my list to check.

I know most folks don't like that heavy of a load because it hits hard on both ends, but in my rifle it shoots good. I'm going to try some 2F OE I have and start at 120 grains and go from there checking accuracy and velocity. Hope some of this information helps.

 

[Mulebrain]

I have recently acquired a GRRW Hawken in .58Cal. I don't have any moulds in this caliber range except a .575 minie. I feel it would be an abomination to shoot those out of it. The .575 minie mics at .580 and slides to the bottom of the barrel with no resistance. My gun is H-135 so is pretty early in GRRW barrel making history. I know every barrel is a one off. I have also read a GRRW manual that states .562 for .58cal barrels. I have also read here where a lot of .58cal shooters are shooting .562 and a thick patch.
I'm trying to keep from buying several different moulds and would like to hear from someone who has experience with GRRW in .58cal.
No information from the previous owner is available.
I'm thinking .570 your thoughts/experiences please.

You need to shoot the largest size ball that will slip into the muzzle. More than likely it's a .570, but may be a .562?? I would order some .570, and if that won't slide in, you know the next step

 

[Crockford]

Hello,

I have a GRRW Leman in 58. I used .570 cast from a Lyman mold with pillow ticking. It's a tight fit but works. I also use a .562 ball and it also shoots good and for hunting I prefer this to the .570 for ease of loading in the field.

The medium load for the 58 according to the paperwork GRRW sent with my rifle shows a MEDIUM of 175 grains of 2F with a velocity of 1750 FPS. With this load using Goex 2F it would hit dead on at 100 yards. With good accuracy. I have yet to chronograph it so I have no idea of the velocity. I just bought a Labrador so it's on my list to check.

I know most folks don't like that heavy of a load because it hits hard on both ends, but in my rifle it shoots good. I'm going to try some 2F OE I have and start at 120 grains and go from there checking accuracy and velocity. Hope some of this information helps.

This is the manual I was referring to. It's also from a GRRW Indian Trade Rifle.
I couldn't imagine touching off the max load of 195 grains. I bet that would shake your teeth loose. My rifle is pretty light at 8lbs 12oz, for a Hawken. I would think 195 grains would still be pushing a ball pretty good at 200 yards.
I use to shoot a Thompson Encore 50cal, using a .45 sabot in front of 150 grains of pyrodex pellets. It kicked like a mule, but would hammer a deer at 200 + yards.
I would think you would flip a deer at 100 yards using 195 grains and .58Cal.

Would love to see if their velocities are correct with their suggested loads. If you break out your chronograph, that would be a neat report.

 

[Dan O]

I dug out my GRRW manual regarding the load data. My Leman serial is 1213 which puts it in the early rifles. The information I received from GRRW shows the load range using G&O FFG BP and a Tele-Pacific chronograph. They listed data for 45, 50, 54, 58, 62 & 69 calibers. Since your interest is the 58 I'll list those loads and approximate velocity's.

Light load - 1500 FPS 125 grains

Moderate load - 1750 FPS 175 grains

Maximum load - 2000 FPS 220 grains

They recommended to start with a ball .10 under bore diameter and a patch .20 thick made of cotton or linen with a heavy weave.

I don't recommend any of these loads. This information you use at your own risk. As I said before I shot Goex FFg using 175 grains and a .570 ball or a .562 ball. Either shot good for me and my rifle. Now I need to work up a safe load with Goex OE FFG. I'll start with 120 grains and go from there. It will be next week at the earliest before I can get to the range. I'll post my results when I can.

 

[Crockford]

Thank you, Dan O. I ordered some .570 hopefully they will arrive soon. Have you ever shot the max load 220 grains? I do have a lot of long shot opportunities, but I don't know if my eyes will let me shot much farther than 150 yards.

 

[Dan O]

Not that I recall. I'm sure I would remember it lol. I did load a mini ball over 175 grains and shot it one time, not a smart thing to do it flat hurt.

 

[chorizo]

I will post this for everyone review. what everyone claims to be heavy loads doesn't seemed to have bothered the generation that used the guns for a living.

From Ned Roberts' book, pg 313

 

[LongWalker]

I will post this for everyone review. what everyone claims to be heavy loads doesn't seemed to have bothered the generation that used the guns for a living.

The Roberts' quote is in reference to Hawkens, not Lemans: there are differences to keep in mind, like size (height) of the buttplate and weight of the rifle. I've not shot an original .58 cal Leman, but I have shot a .56 (in the extended family since Antebellum days). The charger with the rifle threw ~105 grains of Goex. It was uncomfortable to shoot other than off-hand. Two chargers--210 grains--was just painful. That little Leman buttplate just didn't fit my bicep. The same charge in a .59 cal S Hawkens was manageable, but the Hawken weighed a couple pounds more, and must have had most of an inch more between the toe and heel of the buttplate.

In my .50 caliber GRRW Leman (early enough it has a Douglas barrel) I shoot 90 grains of Goex FFg. Chronographed velocity is just over 1,800fps. The max recommended charge of 125 grains of the same powder gives me just a hair over 2,050 fps. I briefly had a .58 Douglas barrel fit to the rifle. Using the same Goex FFg powder, 140 grains gave me 1,790 fps. Two hundred grains (I was working in 10 grain increments) gave me just over 2,000 fps and really nice accuracy (also bruised the bejeebers out of my right bicep). Back to .50 caliber now, but I still wish the barrel had a 1:48 twist.

 

[chorizo]

Thanks for the hands on experience explanation. Hands on real experience carries weight!