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Finnwolf

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Looking for some pointers from you long time smoothies. I've been an flint ML shooter for over 25 yrs but only .50 rifles. Latest infatuation is with half stock fowlers - want to try gobbler hunting with one.
Started off admiring the long fowlers but lately a beautiful 12 ga half stock flinter with a 32" bbl has me all agog. Saw one already sold on TOTW that only weighed 5 1/2 pounds.
[url] http://www.trackofthewolf.com...catId=12&subId=81&styleId=284&partNum=AAE-683[/url]

These don't seem to be all that common so I'm thinking of building one, after I finish a rifle I've got going.
Anyone ever shoot a short, light flint 12 ga? Hows the recoil with both heavy shot loads and PRB loads?
 
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Finnwolf said:
Anyone ever shoot a short, light flint 12 ga? Hows the recoil with...heavy shot loads?
Yes....12ga Navy Arms SxS...about 5-6 lbs...stout loads were punishing in it...I added 3 pounds weight to it which helped a lot but it still bucked
 
Well, i can't help you with th flintlock part but i have shot and do shoot, short, light .12 ga's with rd ball and shot. A lot depends on the stock fit as to the felt recoil. Mine fit me good and i don't notice reoil much with even 90-100 grs of powder and 1 1/4-1 3/8 oz of shot or the same amount of powder and a patched .690 rd ball.
 
Mines 32" .12ga and weighs in at 6.9 lbs. You know it when you touch off 80, 82 gr of 2F and a .715 ball but to me its not bad at all. Recoil does steadily get stiffer with heavier charges of powder. Three shots of 90 gr of powder was enough for me lol. I don't remember the shot charges being that bad but you'd probably be using 70 to 80 gr for a turkey load anyway so it shouldn't bother ya to much.
 
If you have one built with cast off in the stock so the shock goes away from your face, you will probably have better luck with a lightweight fowler with a full load. Lightweight fowlers can be punishing.

Many Klatch
 
Finnwolf, Unless you are going to jug choke that barrel, the secret to getting tight patterns Is NOT TO OVERLOAD them! Less is more, ie., less powder generates better patterns from a cylinder bore shotgun. These are 30 yard guns. If you jug choke them, they can become 40-45 yard guns, but left as sold, you reduce your effective range. I shoot and have shot for years a DB 12 gauge ML, BP shotgun. and my favorite load is 2 3/4 drams(76 grs.)of FFFg, behind 1 1/4 oz. of #5 shot. I have killed pheasants that have dropped cold stone dead out at 33 yards, measured, and witnessed, and I consider any game inside 30 yards to be heading for my kitchen unless I totally screw up. That load, BTW, has a MV of about 1020 fps, which is well below the speed of sound. I use hard shot, to help reduce pellet deformity, and I am actually working on paper shot cups to protect the pellets from rubbing flats on their sides, going down the barrel, and leaving lead deposits on my barrel. I am hoping that my experiments with Lubricating the barrel AFTER I seat my Over Shot Cards on the shot will prove to work out well in my 12 ga. I did the initial testing in my 20 ga. fowler, and I found NO lead in the bore when I cleaned it, and the patterns were nice and round, instead of being ragged edged. I did not have time to count my pellets, but I do believe I had more pellets on the target set out at 25 yards, then when I was only using a lubed cushion wad BEHIND the shot.
 
Finnwolf,

Plain and simple is that gun weight, gun fit and lghter loads reduces felt recoil. A 5 1/2 pound gun is meant to carry a lot and shoot a little where an 8 1/2 pound gun is for to carry a little and shoot a lot. The bigger the gap between your drop at comb measurement and your drop at heel measurement, the more felt recoil. If adding weight, it needs to be in the right places to keep a reasonable balance. Not as important if you are "rifling" it on a turkey but critical if wingshooting.
 
Ooo. That is (was) a beauty.

I have a 27" barrel on my T/C New Englander 12 ga and it is not unpleasant to shoot. I use the equivalent of low-brass loads. Not sure exactly what it weighs but it seems light (certainly compaired to my 44", .54 "C" profile rifle.
 
Mine is a caplock, but the recoil should be about the same. 50-70 is pleasant rabbit and close range small game load. 60-80 squirrel busting medicine. 70-100 starts to get unpleasant. 90-120 is getting into hard recoil range, but is only used for turkeys.
As you use one, you start to trust it a little more and you will use the heavy loads less and less. Gotta tell ya, once you start to pack one around, the rest of your guns need to be oiled now and then!
 
Swamp Rat said:
You know it when you touch off 80, 82 gr of 2F and a .715 ball but to me its not bad at all. Recoil does steadily get stiffer with heavier charges of powder. Three shots of 90 gr of powder was enough for me lol.

Swampy, I couldn't help but get the picture in my mind of the "swamp rat"... in reverse! :haha: :hatsoff:
 
When I had the gun here, I didn't think the recoil was bad at all. (and I'm a wimp :haha:) I was worried a bit that it would knock the snot out of Swampy... :haha: not worried at all after I shot it though.
 
Hi Paul,
I'm kinda traditional and I'd like to take a turkey the way someone in 1760 might have done it. I'm not sure that a flint fowler from that era would have been jug choked - correct me if I am wrong about that.
I admit to knowing nothing about ML shotguns but I value your knowledge of BP shooting.
I got started by buying a used T/C .50 from a guy at work who told me it shot well with 90 grains of 2F, a .490 ball and a .018 patch and I took him at his word. Always got 2" groups at 50 yds and 4-6" at 100 yds. Hunted with it for years and never tried any other loads. When I bought my current PA Hunter .50 with a 1"-66 twist, I just kept on using that 90 grain load. I've been reading your formula and I think I'm going to experiment a little at the range with the .50
What 12 ga load for turkey would your formula suggest?
 
I'm planning to use it for spring gobbler. Currently use a Browning 10 ga pump with 3 1/2" shells, 2 1/4 ounce shot with a 4.5 dram powder charge. Learned some years ago to lean forward away from the tree when I touch her off so as to avoid having to pick treebark out of my back. But that's a 10 lb. gun.
Would a typical turkey load in a 5 1/2 pound flint fowler be more or less recoil than that?
 
Hi Stumpy,
Yeah, she's a beauty but she's gone now and I don't even know what she cost. She ain't no prettier than your Cherry girl though.
Always wondered if a New Englander 12 ga barrel would fit my T/C PA Hunter stock. That would create a reasonable facsimile to a 1/2 stock English fowler!
Finnwolf
 
Finnwolf:

The only formula I have talked about came from the Late Charles Davenport, and that is his formula for determining how much black powder can be burned in barrel of a given length. Now, I can only assume he was thinking of rifle barrels, because shotgun barrels are often made of much thinner stuff, and hold less pressure. so be careful with this.

The formula for finding the maximum load of BP you can burn efficiently in a barrel of any caliber and length is: 11.5 grains per cubic Inch of bore. Assuming a bore diameter of .729 for a 12 gauge shotgun, the nominal diameter, my 30 inch barrels can burn 144.00 grains of powder efficiently. That is near 5 and 1/4 drams of powder, and that is a lot! I would never consider loading that much powder in those barrels.

Your 32 inch barrel would fire 153 grains of powder. Again, I would never suggest using so much powder, particularly in a light gun. The barrels may take it, but will the stock, and your shoulder?

Again, in BP shotguns, with a cylinder bore, Less is more. Read V.M. Starr's article in Bob Spenser's Black Powder Notebook to learn about loads for shotguns. [url] http://members.aye.net/~bspen/starr.html[/url]

Bob Spenser also has his own article on loads, there.

You were talking about getting your barrel jug choked, but didn't mention what size of choke. Assuming you take ROUNDBALL's lead, and go for a full choke, you will probably have a 40 yard turkey gun. I will still recommend 2 3/4 drams of FFFg powder, ( 76 grains) and 1 1/4 oz. of #5 shot, the harder ( ie. plated ) the better, for long shots, and the best patterns.

I use this same load, using smokeless powder equivalents, in my modern shotgun with its Full choke, and throat-relieved Trap Barrel to shoot long range targets, and the load patterns beautifully. I have starburst clay targets out at 50 yards with that same load, and even the shooters shooting against me wanted to know what the heck I had loaded in my gun to break a clay target at that range, so hard.

When I told them this is an old market Hunter 50 yard Duck Load from the Illinois River back in the 1870s, and 1880s, they just shook their heads. Everyone of us has loaded much more powder and even more shot for long range shells for our trap guns, and they were all surprised at how little my powder charge was.

When I got my Percussion shotgun going, I began shooting a light trap load. Then, before hunting season started, I went ahead and loaded it with the #5 shot, 2 3/4 drams, and 1 1/4 oz. of shot, to see how it would pattern, and shoot. I got, and get, nice round patterns, that are nicely filled out. My gun is still a 30 yard gun, but those pellets can kill much further than that. As I indicated, I have killed a pheasant at a measured 33 yards with that load from that gun.

I would not take a shot at a turkey at 40 yards with that gun, simply because I believe the pattern gets too thin at that range to insure a good hit in the head or neck, or both. If I can choke the load with paper shotcups, so that I get denser patterns, I may be able to stretch that 30 yard limit some for turkey hunting.

My inclination now is that if I were going to go after Turkey, I would use my 20 ga.fowler, and I know that barrel has enough metal on it, to allow me to jug choke it, for that purpose. I just don't know if I want to spend that much effort to shoot a turkey at 10 more yards.

Hunting for me is about being there, and out witting the game, to get close enough. Getting a turkey into my shorter range is what makes the hunt a thrill, not just killing a bird. I would like to take a turkey some day, but the world won't end if I don't. That means I can pass on the longer shots. Its just as much fun for me to take any BP shotgun out to shoot doves, and pick my shots. I might not shoot my daily bag limit of 15 birds, But I will have a very good time trying.
 
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Thanks to all for the helpful comments.
Paul, maybe you can answer this or maybe someone else out there can.
What is the felt recoil of my 10 ga Browning pump loaded with 3 1/2" shells, 2 1/4 oz. shot and 4.5 dram powder equivalent and what is the felt recoil of a 5.7 pound flint fowler with a 32" barrel loaded with a typical turkey load - say 100 grains 2f and 2 oz shot? Would the recoil of the fowler increase if jug choked? How much?

Thanks, Finnwolf
 
Finnwolf said:
What is the felt recoil of my 10 ga Browning pump loaded with 3 1/2" shells, 2 1/4 oz. shot and 4.5 dram powder equivalent and what is the felt recoil of a 5.7 pound flint fowler with a 32" barrel loaded with a typical turkey load - say 100 grains 2f and 2 oz shot?
Thanks, Finnwolf

Felt recoil is just that.... "felt". Stance, gun design, physical build, etc.(weight, loads) play a role in felt recoil. You only feel what YOU feel.
 
Finnwolf, you don't need 100 grs of powder and 2 oz of shot to hunt turkey. I used 70 grs of 3f and 1 1/4 oz of shot in my 6 lb .12 ga and in my lightweight .20 flint fowler and it did fine on turkey. You really don't need to beat yourself and your gun up with heavy loads, just get them in a little closer for the shot. 25-30 yds is doable.
 
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