Gun building & Liability

[Anthony]

Looking for thoughts on weather to stamp "Blackpowder Only" on completed gun builds or not. Caywood stamps/ engraves it on his but others don't. Asked him & he said it was to avoid getting sued if the gun was mishandled.

 

[wiscoaster]

Probably depends mostly on whether you're doing the build and selling it as a private individual or as an incorporated entity.

As a side note, if this is something you intend doing repeatedly as an ongoing profit-making venture you're probably well advised to be doing it as an incorporated entity, the simplest being as an LLC.

 

[Robin101]

You can put all the warnings on them, sign sales contracts, brand it on the back of their hand, if they want to sue, you best lawyer up. Like one lawyer told me when I asked about an obvious negligence on the part of someone using a product with multiple warning decal's all over it, Atty: " You don't understand, they already won, that's a givi'n. My job is to keep the amount as low as possible.
You sure can't fix stupid, but in modern America it sure gets rewarded.
Robin

 

[ZUG]

If the buyer gets hurt with your custom-made gun, he can/will sue you regardless of what you put on the gun - that's a fact.

 

[wiscoaster]

If the buyer gets hurt with your custom-made gun, he can/will sue you regardless of what you put on the gun - that's a fact.

Yes, but if he's an LLC then his personal assets are protected against liability lawsuits.

 

[ZUG]

I would not bet my farm on it - lawyers can do "wonderful" things to a jury

 

[bldtrailer]

 

[waksupi]

If it was a hand built rifle and I saw that, I wouldn't buy the rifle.

 

[ChuckJonesWagon]

Anyone can sue anyone else for anything. Doesn't mean the case has merit. But it can get into some $$$ just to defend it.

 

[smoothshooter]

Looking for thoughts on weather to stamp "Blackpowder Only" on completed gun builds or not. Caywood stamps/ engraves it on his but others don't. Asked him & he said it was to avoid getting sued if the gun was mishandled.

Danny Caywood is a good man, but he could still be sued, stamping or not.

 

[ChuckJonesWagon]

A few years back I was looking at a newer model of some lever action (IIRC) and it essentially had a 20 page instruction manuel stamped on the barrel. Honestly, there was little room left to stamp anything else on it.

I didn't buy it.

 

[Rob M.]

Looking for thoughts on weather to stamp "Blackpowder Only" on completed gun builds or not. Caywood stamps/ engraves it on his but others don't. Asked him & he said it was to avoid getting sued if the gun was mishandled.

Just stamp someone else's name on it .... Problem solved !! Gonna stamp " BRANDON " on the top flat of each one from now on ....

 

[olskool]

what gun? what?

 

[Hermit Tim]

Anytime I sell a muzzleloader on eBay or gunbroker, or a barrel, my disclaimer says:

"by purchasing this item the buyer agrees to these terms: once shipped this product is the sole responsibility of the buyer. The seller will not be held accountable for accidents, mishaps, or the stupidity of others".

 

[waarp8nt]

Yes, but if he's an LLC then his personal assets are protected against liability lawsuits.

LLC are not always the safety net they lead folks to believe. I was interested in buying a small mom n pop type gunshop / manufacturer that specialized in trade rifles, the owner and I came up with agreeable numbers. I consulted with an attorney friend and contacted an attorney in regards to the start up of the business. To keep cost down I was going skimp on insurance and the business license, only until things got up and going. As the principal or president of the LLC, if you willingly avoid such costly things and something happens, you can and will be held liable as an individual, with the potential of losing personal assets.

In Illinois, muzzleloaders are considered firearms. So, the paperwork became somewhat more prohibitive with an FFL and a manufacturing license being requirements. I took the attorney's advice and walked away from it.

 

[springfield art]

Looking for thoughts on weather to stamp "Blackpowder Only" on completed gun builds or not. Caywood stamps/ engraves it on his but others don't. Asked him & he said it was to avoid getting sued if the gun was mishandled.

Probably good idea. Sometimes people don't think ahead until a lawsuit happens; I can see some lawyer saying to the jury, as if he's in the Scopes Trial, ladies and gentlemen, if ONLY the rifle had been marked "black powder only", my client would be healthy today!...

 

[ChuckJonesWagon]

LLC are not always the safety net they lead folks to believe. I was interested in buying a small mom n pop type gunshop / manufacturer that specialized in trade rifles, the owner and I came up with agreeable numbers. I consulted with an attorney friend and contacted an attorney in regards to the start up of the business. To keep cost down I was going skimp on insurance and the business license, only until things got up and going. As the principal or president of the LLC, if you willingly avoid such costly things and something happens, you can and will be held liable as an individual, with the potential of losing personal assets.

In Illinois, muzzleloaders are considered firearms. So, the paperwork became somewhat more prohibitive with an FFL and a manufacturing license being requirements. I took the attorney's advice and walked away from it.

When the words "skimp on insurance and business license" came out of your mouth, the attorney advised you well. If you have a reasonable insurance policy and the required necessary license, the advise would likely have been different.

 

[waarp8nt]

When the words "skimp on insurance and business license" came out of your mouth, the attorney advised you well. If you have a reasonable insurance policy and the required necessary license, the advise would likely have been different.

Let me explain in a little more detail. The attorney knew the statement was a hypothetical, an "If, then" question if you will. I probably didn't word that well in my first post. I talked with him in detail regarding the T/C case where their barrel blew up when smokeless pistol powder (not blackpowder) was used and the resulting decision by the courts to find T/C at fault. Later T/C's barrels were marked "blackpowder only". I went on to say that I would not want the barrels marked as the originals were likely only marked with proof markings, not warnings (I agree with waksupi that marks do not look good on a custom gun). The legality of issues (like T/C's), the paperwork required for start up and profit potential after the manufacturing license was purchased, were just some of the things he didn't like. The attorney knew, I would never have started or sold a single product without being fully licensed and insured. He has done work for us (my wife and I) before and after we inquired about the gun business.

I like the attorney, I agree he gave me good advice for what we were wanting to do with the company. He has always given us good advice.

 

[Ponderosaman]

I’m not a lawyer, but I also don’t think it is idiotic for someone who believes they have enough experience with firearms to unknowingly use smokeless powder in a blackpowder firearm. Maybe they have reloaded shot shells for a long time and already have powder they think is suitable. For that reason, as a gun maker, it may make sense, for safety to at least have a discussion about that with the client, for safety rather than legal reasons. The stamp would protect other people if the gun passes beyond the original owner.

 

[ChuckJonesWagon]

Well....people do what we consider to be stupid things. I've advised small business owners my entire career and worked closely with attorneys in an array of business issues.

The LLC, like a corporation will protect the owner from liability as long as "the rules" are followed. Represent the business as a separate entity (business cards, letterhead clearly state LLC or Inc if a corporation) along with a plethora of other rules and regulations.

"Piercing the corporate veil" is a legal phrase when the attorney suing is attempting to reach beyond the entities assets and get at the (likely) more lucrative shareholder's assets. But that's a high bar to get over ....again...as long as the rules of representation are followed. State laws also come into play as each state has their own.

The creation of separate entities are to foster business growth and business ideas. That's why it's not suppose to be easy to pierce the corporate veil.