Gun in Alamo

[dave_person]

Hi,
Thanks for those photos and that clears it up. The second pipe is from the India pattern musket, which suggests yours is a second production run owing to emergency war production at the end of the 18th century. In reading Erik Goldstein and Stewart Mowbray's description of the pattern 1777 in their book "The Brown Bess" they indicate the later production runs of the pattern 1777 may have mixed up parts and that may explain yours. That means, with the Dublin marking, your musket was probably made between 1792 and 1798. My value estimate for you is probably pretty solid unless there are collectors keen on Irish muskets who will pay more. The alteration to the stock is unfortunate from a value stand point. It may have come to America with British units stationed in Canada or possibly during the war of 1812. I wrote to my friend from Williamsburg and am waiting for a reply. Hopefully he has a direct contact for Erik Goldstein.

dave

 

[Flintlock12]

Hi,
Thanks for those photos and that clears it up. The second pipe is from the India pattern musket, which suggests yours is a second production run owing to emergency war production at the end of the 18th century. In reading Erik Goldstein and Stewart Mowbray's description of the pattern 1777 in their book "The Brown Bess" they indicate the later production runs of the pattern 1777 may have mixed up parts and that may explain yours. That means, with the Dublin marking, your musket was probably made between 1792 and 1798. My value estimate for you is probably pretty solid unless there are collectors keen on Irish muskets who will pay more. The alteration to the stock is unfortunate from a value stand point. It may have come to America with British units stationed in Canada or possibly during the war of 1812. I wrote to my friend from Williamsburg and am waiting for a reply. Hopefully he has a direct contact for Erik Goldstein.

dave

awesome I really appreciate all this information Dave. Incredible thinking this musket could’ve been used in the war of 1812, Indian wars,Spanish/American war.

 

[chuck1956]

This is really neat watching the story unfold.
Please keep us informed. Thank you.

 

[Eterry]

A very interesting thread. I recall visiting the Alamo in the late 80's and seeing that very display. The part about shooting from the hip stuck with me. The musket had the bayonet attached and was placed next to a Mexican Soldier mannequin and was pointed out the musket was taller than he was.

I hate to point out the obvious but have you confirmed it wasn't left with a charge in the barrel? I understand this is a common occurrence.

 

[Flintlock12]

A very interesting thread. I recall visiting the Alamo in the late 80's and seeing that very display. The part about shooting from the hip stuck with me. The musket had the bayonet attached and was placed next to a Mexican Soldier mannequin and was pointed out the musket was taller than he was.

I hate to point out the obvious but have you confirmed it wasn't left with a charge in the barrel? I understand this is a common occurrence.

so awesome hearing you remember seeing his display. Brings me joy. Yeah there is no charge in the barrel. I am not sure how long they took it off display. My mom and I went in 2010 before I left for boot camp to see it and it was not displayed. In the 90s we went regularly and it was there. I assume they took it down somewhere in the 2000s and they have been “reconstructing the Alamo” what seems like forever now. They claim the moisture from the people in the Alamo is breaking down the Limestone and so now they only let 50 people in at a time. They hardly had anything on display when I went to get this musket. Seems the Alamo is just struggling and it really is a shame. Won’t be long they’ll turn it into a amusement park.

 

[Flintlock12]

I got ahold of Erik Goldstein. He said it is an Irish Dublin Castle pattern 1777. One thing I’ve noticed about this musket is the Ramrod looks to be one of a French musket, possibly a Charville musket. Could’ve been picked up in battle! Seems likely this musket did come into the US through Canada and more than likely saw action in the revolutionary war specifically the battle of Saratoga. This is just from me researching and linking things together. These specific Irish Bess with the flared second rammer pipe do seem to be extremely rare.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Flintlock,
That is great but it is unlikely from the Rev War. As I wrote previously, the second pipe is wrong for muskets issued during the Rev War period. Moreover, there is no conclusive evidence that this pattern musket was ever used in the Rev War. There are no surviving examples known that can be unambiguously linked to that war. That said, two of its sisters, the Liege contract muskets and those contracted by John Pratt were used in the war so it stands to reason that the primary pattern for those variants should have been issued to troops in NA. It is highly unlikely any were carried by British troops at Saratoga in 1777. Just because the pattern dates to 1777 does not mean it was issued then. British Ordnance used up older patterns first and then issued newer ones, often several years after a newer pattern was first produced. I believe your musket was made at least a decade after the Rev War and if it came to America through Canada, it was during the War of 1812 or perhaps one of the battles during Little Turtle's War at the end of the 18th century. It is a nice musket that is rare.