Gun show 1860 Army

[eggwelder]

Bought this Saturday at a local gun show. Not sure what i have here. Barrel has what I believe is a gain twist- its straight leaving the forcing cone then starts to twist. I have never seen this type of rifling before. Was touted as an original. Has manufacture date of 1868 based on the serial no. Was looked at by another vendor who specializes in antiques, he was pretty convinced it was original. The frame is civilian pattern- no notches for the shoulder stock. Has only colt markings, but after i got it home and gave it a thorough cleaning, many of the parts are looking too new. The loading lever and hammer look too new. The trigger guard appears to have been soda blasted, but could possibly be still an unpolished investment lost wax casting. am hoping it was bought and never used…..or rebuilt with later parts.
it`s obviously been reblued, and the frame is blue as well, unlike the Italian models which all seem to be color case hardened.
the biggest issue i`m having is that the trigger screw from my ASM 1851 Navy threads into the trigger screw hole on this one, which leads me to think it may be a clever forgery. The serial number on the back strap indicates a manufacturing date of 1869- it does not match the other three numbers, and the cylinder has “Colts Patent No 055”.
the nipples, which do need replacing, seem too short to set off any make of cap that i have, they don`t go bang, but when removed and put on another percussion gun, the caps fire fine. Once again, the ASM nipples will thread nicely into the cylinder. One chamber is stripped at the nipple threads, leaving me with a 5 shot six gun.
there are no Italian markings on this gun.
it locks up tight and only a little play if you do not cock it like you mean business. it seems not to like a timid shooter.
the serial number and the light pitting on the barrel, sides of the frame and the lightly beaten trigger guard all indicate a well taken care of original that was fired rarely. The threadings and hammer indicate to me a second Gen colt.
need your thoughts before i make any further decisions.

 

[eggwelder]

Note - .457 balls are a hair too small- they do not shave any discernible amount of lead when seating the ball, some lead is displaced, however.

 

[M. De Land]

Bought this Saturday at a local gun show. Not sure what i have here. Barrel has what I believe is a gain twist- its straight leaving the forcing cone then starts to twist. I have never seen this type of rifling before. Was touted as an original. Has manufacture date of 1868 based on the serial no. Was looked at by another vendor who specializes in antiques, he was pretty convinced it was original. The frame is civilian pattern- no notches for the shoulder stock. Has only colt markings, but after i got it home and gave it a thorough cleaning, many of the parts are looking too new. The loading lever and hammer look too new. The trigger guard appears to have been soda blasted, but could possibly be still an unpolished investment lost wax casting. am hoping it was bought and never used…..or rebuilt with later parts.
it`s obviously been reblued, and the frame is blue as well, unlike the Italian models which all seem to be color case hardened.
the biggest issue i`m having is that the trigger screw from my ASM 1851 Navy threads into the trigger screw hole on this one, which leads me to think it may be a clever forgery. The serial number on the back strap indicates a manufacturing date of 1869- it does not match the other three numbers, and the cylinder has “Colts Patent No 055”.
the nipples, which do need replacing, seem too short to set off any make of cap that i have, they don`t go bang, but when removed and put on another percussion gun, the caps fire fine. Once again, the ASM nipples will thread nicely into the cylinder. One chamber is stripped at the nipple threads, leaving me with a 5 shot six gun.
there are no Italian markings on this gun.
it locks up tight and only a little play if you do not cock it like you mean business. it seems not to like a timid shooter.
the serial number and the light pitting on the barrel, sides of the frame and the lightly beaten trigger guard all indicate a well taken care of original that was fired rarely. The threadings and hammer indicate to me a second Gen colt.
need your thoughts before i make any further decisions.
View attachment 88100
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Check the threads to see if they are metric, if so it's fake! I'm no expert on antique anything but two things bother me about the gun.
1. The trigger shape and length.
2. The fit of the trigger grip strap/trigger guard to the frame. Originals seemed to me to be almost flawlessly fit.

 

[TFoley]

I've never heard of ANY replica with a gain-twist barrel. That is EXPENSIVE.

I'm prepared, however, to be advised to the contrary.

My next question is - where is the wear? Edges and corners on a handgun this old are usually worn from holster wear - this has none. TBH, it looks a lot like one of my earlier efforts at oil-blacking - a refurb, perhaps? Even my modern-made ROA has use-polish marks on the sides of the hammer from many cockings.

 

[PathfinderNC]

Out of curiosity, what did you pay for it?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Check the threads to see if they are metric, if so it's fake! I'm no expert on antique anything but two things bother me about the gun.
1. The trigger shape and length.
2. The fit of the trigger grip strap/trigger guard to the frame. Originals seemed to me to be almost flawlessly fit.

I've never heard of ANY replica with a gain-twist barrel. That is EXPENSIVE.

I'm prepared, however, to be advised to the contrary.

My next question is - where is the wear? Edges and corners on a handgun this old are usually worn from holster wear - this has none. TBH, it looks a lot like one of my earlier efforts at oil-blacking - a refurb, perhaps? Even my modern-made ROA has use-polish marks on the sides of the hammer from many cockings.

So I think this is a Frankenvolver.

You have some original parts, especially the barrel. Likely they are parts NOT from an actual Colt, but from a high grade European copy of a Colt, circa 1860's. There were lots of Colt copies in Europe since Colt could not enforce his patent outside the USA, and Colt got smart and went to several of the good copiers overseas and sold them a "license" to make the copies, and got a little cash in return on every copy made. Perhaps the reason for the metric screws is its European origin ?? On the other hand the builder may have hung a cylinder and barrel, and a few other parts on a 20th century repro frame..., could be tough to tell.

So somebody had the main parts, perhaps of more than one pistol (hence some numbers don't match) and rebuilt the pistol, BUT..., then there were obvious color variations, SO..., you get the after-market-home-blue currently on the revolver. I'd bet dollars v. donuts that they used the Brownell's product for home bluing as it goes directly over old blue.

OR..., it's really mostly an original unauthorized copy, and somebody replaced a few parts and home-blued it not realizing that such an action would not help its value... or simply wanted to shoot it and didn't care...,

Another question...,
Was this a deliberate fake, or did somebody put together a nice piece, but not a collector piece, and over time so called "experts" have been fooled, so now folks want to sell it as an "original" ? Who can say ?

LD

 

[desi23]

I tend to agree with the "Frankenrevolver" idea. A mix of old parts put together with modern parts to make a workable gun. I have one of those myself though I am still looking for good Colt parts to bring mine closer to correct. It could be an old counterfeit piece but a gain twist rifled barrel would be a bit of work as even the early (1960's era) replicas didn't copy that feature. Also most of the older counterfeits tended to duplicate the rarer, more valuable pieces (Dragoons, Walkers, 1'st model Navies, etc.). The 1860 is one of the more common originals to be seen, I still encounter them at the collector shows regularly.

 

[FishDFly]

I remember from reading here a long time that some Italian revolvers have been made with gain twist rifling. Not sure which one's but it has been discussed.

A trip with a nipple as MDL recommends to the hardware store will tell.

 

[FishDFly]

The other way to tell, is to send the information on what you have and the required amount of money to Colt and they will tell you when it was made and to where it was originally shipped if it is an origianal.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Here's some better detail on Colt European copies.

I was inaccurate, in that for a while Colt did have European patents, but the logistics of going over to whichever nation where the patent was being violated, and filing a suit, against some small companies, was at first financially impossible for Colt. Later is was a likely outcome of a hollow victory, so in 1851 Colt started his licensing program. Just before the ACW many of the patents expired.
Forgotten Weapons Brevette Colt Revolvers

So I also learned that an original .44 Colt Brevette [copy] is very rare, so the barrel assembly since it's a gain-twist is likely not an original 19th century copy , SO..., this is likely a Frankenvolver of Italian repro parts.

LD

 

[eggwelder]

What a lot to take in-
if it is not original- i paid too much. Education is expensive.

if its a refurbed original and falls into the category of antique in Canada- i paid a decent price- shootable antiques are sought after due to no licensing requirements in Canada, where hand guns are severely restricted- not as much as jolly old England.
shootable Colts even more so.

It came out of the US, apparently- not to much is legally getting across the border. Our gestapo is extremely hard on legal and licences owners and importers of handguns, they get heavily inspected by the CBSA. Smuggle away……the legal implications are less- especially if you are unlicenced……..

the trigger guard has some dings where there should be none, along the top edge where it meets the frame. There is also some dings at the bottom of the front of the strap- almost like someone used it for a hammer at one point. May have sat in a parts box for a while.
the front sight looks to be German silver- a rather odd color when you are expecting brass.

wear marks- the barrel has minor pitting at the muzzle on the outside, and lightly pitted. Barrel inside has light pits that one might expect from a gently used 153 year old barrel. Barrel to frame fit leaves a gap of about two sheets of copy paper- there may be crud inside the arbour hole.
the surface pitting carried on to the frame under the cylinder the fades to nothing.
the cylinder has very light dings on the front outer edge- feel them more than see them. It does not have the patent year under the patent number. Fits very well.
the grip is older or well used- seems to have shrunk evenly around the frame but still fits tight. It has no markings that i can see. inside or out. It is oil finished. The dings on that are on par with the trigger guard dings and barrel
the load lever is decidedly a new replacement, however well fitted.
the wedge is new, as is the trigger.
the hand has a very strong spring- makes the dragoon and ASM hand spring seem flimsy in comparison

all the markings look correct to what i have found on line- the script matches originals- does not resemble 2 Gen markings.
are 2 Gen models metric threaded or what colt would have used? I`ll do a comparison.

my Armi San Marco has a date code for 2008. Did they use metric or colt type threads?

Factory refurb? 1946 to 1955 era?

i really like it- it is my favourite over the 2 Gen Dragoon, my ROA(which has the rubber grip) and the ASM. It feels perfect in my hand, better than the other three.

my suspicion is that it may have been built around a European frame- and therefore a Frankenrevolver.

it could have legal implications for myself and the vendor if that proves to be true.

 

[Bad Karma]

What a lot to take in-
if it is not original- i paid too much. Education is expensive.

if its a refurbed original and falls into the category of antique in Canada- i paid a decent price- shootable antiques are sought after due to no licensing requirements in Canada, where hand guns are severely restricted- not as much as jolly old England.
shootable Colts even more so.

It came out of the US, apparently- not to much is legally getting across the border. Our gestapo is extremely hard on legal and licences owners and importers of handguns, they get heavily inspected by the CBSA. Smuggle away……the legal implications are less- especially if you are unlicenced……..

the trigger guard has some dings where there should be none, along the top edge where it meets the frame. There is also some dings at the bottom of the front of the strap- almost like someone used it for a hammer at one point. May have sat in a parts box for a while.
the front sight looks to be German silver- a rather odd color when you are expecting brass.

wear marks- the barrel has minor pitting at the muzzle on the outside, and lightly pitted. Barrel inside has light pits that one might expect from a gently used 153 year old barrel. Barrel to frame fit leaves a gap of about two sheets of copy paper- there may be crud inside the arbour hole.
the surface pitting carried on to the frame under the cylinder the fades to nothing.
the cylinder has very light dings on the front outer edge- feel them more than see them. It does not have the patent year under the patent number. Fits very well.
the grip is older or well used- seems to have shrunk evenly around the frame but still fits tight. It has no markings that i can see. inside or out. It is oil finished. The dings on that are on par with the trigger guard dings and barrel
the load lever is decidedly a new replacement, however well fitted.
the wedge is new, as is the trigger.
the hand has a very strong spring- makes the dragoon and ASM hand spring seem flimsy in comparison

all the markings look correct to what i have found on line- the script matches originals- does not resemble 2 Gen markings.
are 2 Gen models metric threaded or what colt would have used? I`ll do a comparison.

my Armi San Marco has a date code for 2008. Did they use metric or colt type threads?

Factory refurb? 1946 to 1955 era?

i really like it- it is my favourite over the 2 Gen Dragoon, my ROA(which has the rubber grip) and the ASM. It feels perfect in my hand, better than the other three.

my suspicion is that it may have been built around a European frame- and therefore a Frankenrevolver.

it could have legal implications for myself and the vendor if that proves to be true.

Your ASM nipples wouldn’t fit in the first or second gen cylinder. Is the cylinder stamped with a serial number?
Gen 2 Colts are not threaded metric.

 

[rkcohen]

"Not sure what i have here."

......you gotta love it when folks have faith!!

 

[bang]

.457 ball? Not original it seems to me. The 44 colt 1860 as I've read here is not true to colt.

 

[ZUG]

Did Colt stamp the caliber on the trigger guards like this one? I ask since I don't remember this and it's been a LONG - LONG time since I have seen a true original.

 

[desi23]

Did Colt stamp the caliber on the trigger guards like this one? I ask since I don't remember this and it's been a LONG - LONG time since I have seen a true original.

That is the normal location for a caliber marking on Colt cap & ball revolvers. Not all were marked though if my memory is correct

 

[eggwelder]

"Not sure what i have here."

......you gotta love it when folks have faith!!

Well, i did buy it for a shooter grade antique, it came thru customs from the US by a reputable importer, and sold to me by a reputable dealer. It was refurbed before it was imported.
Put approximately 100 ball thru it at my fathers “funeral games”- many of my relations fired it quite successfully. It hits an 18 inch target at 50 yds, and i can legally shoot it wherever non-restricted firearms may be legally discharged due to it`s antique status. That is the purpose of this investment for me- i don`t collect non-shooting guns.

I believe the cylinder is a replacement, this will not affect it`s antique status. It is well fitted.
as before, a .457 ball is just barely big enough.