Gun used in movie Jerimiah Johnson?

[Greenmtnboy]

I don't think it was a swivel/turnover gun. In fact, I took special notice of it because it looked just like the side-by-side rifle-shotgun combo I had at the time: that one was made by Nelson Lewis probably before 1860. Others of the type are not uncommon, and several are illustrated in Ned Roberts' book 'The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle'. They were more common in the East, but several American makers built them, probably beginning in the early '40s, and, since Jeremiah Johnson apparently was a veteran of the Mexican War, there is no reason why such a piece would not have found its way to the possession of an Indian in the West, one way or another...
mhb - Mike

yup it could be a double hammer over an under.
I have paused that movie everytime I watch it to try to figure that out.
:hmm:

 

[poordevil]

It looks to me like what is called an Express gun. Side x side one bbl smooth and the other rifled.

 

[mhb]

As best I remember, the Injun held the piece laid across his horse, and it appeared to me to be a side-by-side combination gun with a rifled and a smooth bored barrel, like my Nelson Lewis.
mhb - Mike

 

[Scharms]

I just found a DVD copy of JJ for $5.00 at wal-mart. Good price! :thumbsup:

 

[tg]

"
I thought it came from the Latin "libra" meaning "scale" (French "livre" means "book") - but I could be mistaken.'

I may have misspelled it but it was the French measure of weight it is used a lot in "Colonial Frontier Guns" by Hamilton giving the conversions to Engish balls sizes/weights

 

[bob308]

the hawken bro. also made target rifles. in fact they made more small bore target rifles then plains rifles. that is in the book the hawken rifle. by hanson.

 

[mhb]

O.K.! Study up on the piece in the movie and tell us what you think! See if you can tell whether the stock lies beneath the barrels over the horse, and if both that and the location of the ramrod (and sights, if visible) help to identify the configuration.
mhb - Mike

 

[necchi]

It's about 6 minutes into this clip; http://www.videosurf.com/video/jeremiah-johnson-pt-1-50840810

Looks like a side by side too me. :idunno:

 

[GreyWhiskers]

Thanks for the clip. Looks like a side by side but the stock's not visible. I'm wondering where the ramrod would be located on a swivel gun. :hmm: GW

 

[pargent]

its in the complete black powder hand book by sam fadala page 23, built by bill newton .

 

[Rifleman1776]

Thanks for the clip. Looks like a side by side but the stock's not visible. I'm wondering where the ramrod would be located on a swivel gun. :hmm: GW

The ones I have seen, it is on the side.

 

[Pigman]

I Posted this in a similar thread earlier this year:

"I found this on IMDB.COM when looking at John Milius:

"Milius, an avid gun collector, insisted that part of his payment for writing Jeremiah Johnson (1972) be in antique weapons.""
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/255926/post/972138/hl//fromsearch/1/

Foster From Flint

 

[mhb]

Thanks for the clip! I watched it (the part of interest) several times, and I do believe it's a side-by-side: you can easily make out the ramrod on the bottom, and it also appears that the rib on top is flat - I also 'imagine' I can make out a front sight, and what I believe are the forestock and the trigger guard lower down. It would be easier to make out more detail on a larger screen, I think.
mhb - Mike

 

[pargent]

The ram rod on a swivle gun is usualy mounted on the side between the barrels :thumbsup:

 

[Claude Mathis]

Whether it's a swivel or side-by-side, the ramrod is mounted in the same position relative to the barrels, is it not?

I would think the position of the front sights would be more telling, if there are any.

 

[tg]

As for cal. nomenclature a study of what the common usgae of terms was at that time might shed more light on whether it was a typo or not, I have not looked at much of anything from that late RMFT and later for years myself but think that a distinct seperation twixt rifle and "shotgun" bore terminology had evolved by then thus eliminatong the balls per lb, and "bore" terms for rifles as this is not early in the RMFT era

 

[Pigman]

I know it is shown later in the movie.

Are there any better views?

Foster From Flint

 

[necchi]

It all boils down too, it IS Hollywood.(.)
And it sure is a cool looking gun in that scene.

I always get a kick out of when they get Del Gue out of the sand, His Bucksins are pristene clean.

 

[LaBonte]

This subject has been discussed elsewhere in the past and the fact is the gun was an original double side by side with a smoothbore and a rifled barrel. They were known in Africa as cape guns and are like this one on TOTW http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Cate...catId=12&subId=78&styleId=266&partNum=AAI-465
While the type may have been a bit unusual they were not unknonw in the west of that era.
Side by side double guns of varying quality were widely available and popular during the 1830's and later - remember JJ is dated post 1846-48. Double guns, including finely made English ones, show up in western trade records especially the HBC records and in St Louis they were sold by most dealers (see the 1830's St Louis adverts in Charles Hanson's book on Hawken rifles to see the variety of guns and other weapons available - and if you were a western trapper and had the money you could order what you wished and have it delivered.)
How the Indian got it? as others have noted several ways were possible: a gift, stolen, etc.
While the most common gun of that era and in that place would have been an American made long rifle of some style/type many other types were available as well - Bridger reportedly carried a swivel breech at one time and McKenzie, factor at Ft Union in the 1830's, ordered a Billinghurst revolving long gun to go along with his chain mail shirt.
Also by the 1840's hunting expeditions in the west by the rich were becoming more and more popular. Capt Stewart, who carried doubles by Manton and also supplied at least one of his retainers with such a gun, had been visiting the west since the early 1830s - Stewart in fact had all of his gear, including his Mantons, stolen by the Crows in the mid-1830's. George Ruxton, another Engishman, visted the SW USA in 1846 and was also armed with British made double guns. both rifled and smoothbore.
In the 1850's uber rich sportsman Sir George Gore went on an extended hunting trip with Jim Bridger as guide and had an arsenal of finely made guns.

Gore's entourage included his valet, a dog-handler and a pack of thirty-two greyhounds and eighteen foxhounds, a fly-tying specialist (who was constantly gathering new material for artificial flies), and attendants who cared for Sir George's arsenal: seventy-five rifles, more than a dozen shotguns (all muzzle-loaders but one Sharps rifle) and many pistols, including a number of revolvers. Captain Randolph B. Marcy, U.S. 5th Infantry, who gained fame for his role in the Utah Expedition of 1857-58, met Gore soon after his return from the mountains and "observed the names of Joseph Manton, James Purdey, Westley Richards and other celebrated makers" on his guns. All were fully engraved and fitted with carved English walnut stocks.

http://historytogo.utah.gov/salt_lake_tribune/in_another_time/021697.html

John Palliser, another Brit, was a hunter for Ft Union in the early 1850's and recommended doubles, either smoothbore or belted ball rifles, as the best type of gun for western hunting.

Yep our perceptions have often been colored by Hollywood, but sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.

 

[LaBonte]

As for cal. nomenclature a study of what the common usgae of terms was at that time might shed more light on whether it was a typo or not, I have not looked at much of anything from that late RMFT and later for years myself but think that a distinct seperation twixt rifle and "shotgun" bore terminology had evolved by then thus eliminatong the balls per lb, and "bore" terms for rifles as this is not early in the RMFT era

While the term caliber as a synonym for gauge/balls per pound was little used by this time (at least outside of France) the balls per pound terminology continued to be used well into at least the 1860's. All of the extant trade lists/purchase orders from even that late use the balls per pound terminology.
Caliber however by the 1850's began to slowly denote bore diameter instead of gauge/BPP mainly due to the growing popularity of conicals but sometimes both terms were used for the same gun. For instance in an original 1859 advert for Colt 1851 Navy revolvers they note a bore diameter/caliber of .375", a balls per pound for round balls, and a balls per pound for conicals (often still called a ball) - they covered the bases so to speak.
It wasn't until the point that rifled guns, both shoulder and hand, began to use conicals almost exclusively (1870's?) that the balls per pound term was discontinued and gauge (which means the same as balls per pound) became exclusively used for shotguns.