Fitzhugh Williams
40 Cal
Once again, great information. Thanks!
"Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
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Thanks Dave for your expertise in examining these fine pistols, must be fun "exploring" them!
I really like the info on the tang and breech areas, still not clear on the taper of the tang for the hook to slide into and tighten as it joins, I think I have it, maybe when I start to work on mine?
Anyway, keep it coming, we all enjoy your tutorials!
I really like the info on the tang and breech areas, still not clear on the taper of the tang for the hook to slide into and tighten as it joins, I think I have it, maybe when I start to work on mine?
Anyway, keep it coming, we all enjoy your tutorials!
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Hi,
Here are a few more examples showing the "square" architecture of the handle. Other makers did the same but Wogdon was an early innovator for the dueling pistol and others may have copied him.
Another Wogdon:
My version made in 2009:
Joe Manton (a little more rectangular):
The ramrods are tapered and may be rosewood. The tips are horn and the ferrules are rolled iron sheet, brazed, and with tow worms attached.
Another feature of these Wogdon pistols, there is cast off away from the locks in the handles. The handles also lean away from the lock sides. Both pistols are exactly the same.
When I hold these pistols and then raise them naturally to aim in my right hand, the sights are to the left. When I hold the pistols in my left hand and raise them to aim, they are dead on. The stocks likely were fitted to the hand of the owner. Perhaps the owner of these was left handed but that would need more testing with more people. For me this raises two really important points, one instructive to gun makers and the second instructive to historians. First, they show some of the elements within the square that can be changed to fit the owners. Those are cast off/cast on, and tilt. For the historians, the fact that dueling pistols were tailored to the owner debunks any notion that pistols were usually shared during a duel. Why would one person want to duel with a pistol designed for his antagonist? As O'Sullivan and Bailey assert in their book, the pistol pair was to provide a second shot not to share with the opponent. He brought his own pistols just like he brought his own sword when duels were resolved by sword play. There were duels with shared pistols and they were usually because one participant did not have a brace or the rules agreed upon by the participants required third party pistols, like the Hamilton-Burr duel.
dave
Here are a few more examples showing the "square" architecture of the handle. Other makers did the same but Wogdon was an early innovator for the dueling pistol and others may have copied him.
Another Wogdon:
My version made in 2009:
Joe Manton (a little more rectangular):
The ramrods are tapered and may be rosewood. The tips are horn and the ferrules are rolled iron sheet, brazed, and with tow worms attached.
Another feature of these Wogdon pistols, there is cast off away from the locks in the handles. The handles also lean away from the lock sides. Both pistols are exactly the same.
When I hold these pistols and then raise them naturally to aim in my right hand, the sights are to the left. When I hold the pistols in my left hand and raise them to aim, they are dead on. The stocks likely were fitted to the hand of the owner. Perhaps the owner of these was left handed but that would need more testing with more people. For me this raises two really important points, one instructive to gun makers and the second instructive to historians. First, they show some of the elements within the square that can be changed to fit the owners. Those are cast off/cast on, and tilt. For the historians, the fact that dueling pistols were tailored to the owner debunks any notion that pistols were usually shared during a duel. Why would one person want to duel with a pistol designed for his antagonist? As O'Sullivan and Bailey assert in their book, the pistol pair was to provide a second shot not to share with the opponent. He brought his own pistols just like he brought his own sword when duels were resolved by sword play. There were duels with shared pistols and they were usually because one participant did not have a brace or the rules agreed upon by the participants required third party pistols, like the Hamilton-Burr duel.
dave
Interesting that the ramrod has a tow worm attachment. Makes me wonder if the smoothbore pistol load was commonly an unpatched ball with tow wadding atop it?
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Hi Bob,
In dueling pistols, the ball is wrapped in a patch. The tow worm is for cleaning. The cased pistols would have another rod in the case with a patch holding jag on the end.
dave
In dueling pistols, the ball is wrapped in a patch. The tow worm is for cleaning. The cased pistols would have another rod in the case with a patch holding jag on the end.
dave
Thanks for clarifying that, Dave. Something else learned.Hi Bob,
In dueling pistols, the ball is wrapped in a patch. The tow worm is for cleaning. The cased pistols would have another rod in the case with a patch holding jag on the end.
dave
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Hi,
Experienced history today by shooting both pistols. They functioned beautifully even with well used flints. Trigger pull was crisp and just under 4 lbs. They are not hair triggers by any means. They require determined pressure but are very easy to get used to. Ignition was very fast, as fast as I've ever experienced, and very reliable. I can see how the wide rear sight allows you to acquire your man-sized target quickly and line things up almost instantly. However, it is not for target shooting. Moreover, the cast off of the handles forces my point well to the left. I have to aim to the right when I come up or down with the pistols and acquire my aim. It makes a huge difference. There is no question that these pistols were fitted to the original owner. I cannot speak to the accuracy of the guns until I've shot them some more and figured out the sighting for me.
Cleaning was a piece of cake because the barrels can be removed so easily and washed with soap and water. After cleaning and oiling the barrels, I was able to get a good illuminated view of the bores. They are in terrific shape and the breech plugs are notched at the touch hole. The notches are shallow but very wide and extend almost all the way across the face of the plug. I do not know if the vent holes are funneled on the inside but the speed of ignition suggests that might be the case. I learned a lot today but one thing learned that was gratifying, the Wogdons I made are right up there with these. I got them right.
dave
Experienced history today by shooting both pistols. They functioned beautifully even with well used flints. Trigger pull was crisp and just under 4 lbs. They are not hair triggers by any means. They require determined pressure but are very easy to get used to. Ignition was very fast, as fast as I've ever experienced, and very reliable. I can see how the wide rear sight allows you to acquire your man-sized target quickly and line things up almost instantly. However, it is not for target shooting. Moreover, the cast off of the handles forces my point well to the left. I have to aim to the right when I come up or down with the pistols and acquire my aim. It makes a huge difference. There is no question that these pistols were fitted to the original owner. I cannot speak to the accuracy of the guns until I've shot them some more and figured out the sighting for me.
Cleaning was a piece of cake because the barrels can be removed so easily and washed with soap and water. After cleaning and oiling the barrels, I was able to get a good illuminated view of the bores. They are in terrific shape and the breech plugs are notched at the touch hole. The notches are shallow but very wide and extend almost all the way across the face of the plug. I do not know if the vent holes are funneled on the inside but the speed of ignition suggests that might be the case. I learned a lot today but one thing learned that was gratifying, the Wogdons I made are right up there with these. I got them right.
dave
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Interesting about the two sets new to me but Ime not a particular student of duelers though I have two books on them. The once Lionized singer John Muir known for his' The Last Rose of Summer 'song &' The Minstral boy to the war is gone' plus no doubt many more he was sort of a' pop idol 'of his age, A bit like Robert Burns who added a more rustic quality & was similarly feted in high society . .But unlike Muir he didn't get into any duels , Unlike our Mr Muir who its related lost all Favour by loading his own pistol but the other was just blank . whether there was any contrivance with his second I can't say . If very likely . Just a side mention. But yes handed and fitting the customer . Only the wealthy Gentlemen or Officers fought duels .
(Vulgar oiks like me used their fists !) So only the best would do & they could afford it . This is a fine post topic .
Regards Rudyard
(Vulgar oiks like me used their fists !) So only the best would do & they could afford it . This is a fine post topic .
Regards Rudyard
I can imagine what would run through one’s mind, imagining how and by whom these pistols were originally used. Maybe in an actual duel? If only they could talk…
What load did you decide for?
What load did you decide for?
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Hi Bob,
I used 12-18 grains of 3F Swiss powder, 0.445 caliber balls with 0.015" thick patches lubed with Ballistol and water. The ball and patch may need to be tighter because the patches showed some gas blow by. I may try my heavy denim patches next. Loading was easy as the ball and patch could be started with my thumb. I am not sure what would be a historical load but I certainly was not going to start with any powerful charges. I shot at 15 yards and everything was on paper within the scoring area but I need a lot more practice with the sights and fit of the pistols. The cast off in the grips is really potent forcing my aim to the left. It is quite difficult to overcome without feeling unnatural holding the pistols or aiming way to the right. Both pistols shot exactly the same.
dave
I used 12-18 grains of 3F Swiss powder, 0.445 caliber balls with 0.015" thick patches lubed with Ballistol and water. The ball and patch may need to be tighter because the patches showed some gas blow by. I may try my heavy denim patches next. Loading was easy as the ball and patch could be started with my thumb. I am not sure what would be a historical load but I certainly was not going to start with any powerful charges. I shot at 15 yards and everything was on paper within the scoring area but I need a lot more practice with the sights and fit of the pistols. The cast off in the grips is really potent forcing my aim to the left. It is quite difficult to overcome without feeling unnatural holding the pistols or aiming way to the right. Both pistols shot exactly the same.
dave
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Re load I think it wasn,t much powder just suffice to flatten a ball at the useual shortish range' To the size of a shilling' read nickle size .
Rudyard
Rudyard
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Hi Dave,
Missed this for a while, but have to mention I'm enjoying this thread immensely!
Just wondering if the British ever used the bottom anchor and cross pin on long smoothbore guns or rifles?
Gus
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Don't overlook that the term you use - 'British' includes the Welsh and Scots as well as the English. However, the Irish also made some fine duellers in Dublin. I'm certain, however, that the Welsh did not engage in such un-Godly shenanigins.
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Hi Gus,
Always if the gun had a standing breech. Late in the 18th and in the 19th centuries they often substituted a screw that held the front of the trigger guard in place and was threaded into the bottom of the standing breech as below.
dave
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Hi,
All this brings me to the topic of how do you build pistols like these and in particular, like Wogdon's? The pithy short answer is, it is not easy. I am just going to focus on British dueling pistols from the fourth quarter of the 18th century. No other guns. Let's start with the easy stuff. There are great barrels by Rice, Rayl, and Hoyt that are perfect. Any nicely swamped octagon pistol barrel between 9 and 10" will work. Ideally, they should be smooth bored but given we don't fight duels today, rifled barrels make fine target pistols. Here are two from Rayl.
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For Wogdon's early "French" barrels, you need to find nice tapered or swamped round barrels 8-10" long. You want the barrels to be at least 7/8" at the breech but 1" is better. Filing the top flat is not hard but it takes some skill to keep it even. Octagon to round barrels were rarely used after about 1770 and before the dueling pistol fully evolved. Lugs can be soldered or mortised but it is best to make the loops at least 1/8" wide. Standing breeches were always fitted. It is harder to find them now and few have the proper lugs on the bottoms. TRS sells some that are the right size.
Contrary to rubbish occasionally encountered in print and online, British pistols made for dueling had front and rear sights. The sights were usually shaped to allow quick aim and snap shooting but they also could facilitate deliberate aim. On Wogdons, the rear sight is part of the standing breech and is fixed. On the pair I made, I dove tailed them into the barrel so they could be adjusted since the owner was a target shooter. Wogdon's rear sights had a wide "U", narrow "U", "V" notch or a combination of those things. The front sight may be mortised in place or mounted on a dovetailed base that could be adjusted for windage. The sight was not soldered on the barrel.
The biggest problem are the locks. Nobody makes a good pistol lock the right shape and size. They are all too big and awkwardly shaped. Most dueling pistol locks are less than 4 1/2" long and ideally about 4 1/4" and they are all flat faced. That rules out all commercially made locks except the Davis "Becky" lock, which is no longer available and would need a lot of work to bring it up to the standard of originals. Here is a photo showing Chambers late Ketland, Rice's new so-called "Nock" lock, and one of Wogdons locks. Admittedly, the Wogdon lock is on the small size for later dueling pistols but only by about 1/2".
Some folks use L&R's Bailes or "Baby Manton" lock. It is still too long and has a slightly curved plate that usually results in awkward looking pistols. You cannot achieve the Wogdon profile with any of those locks because Wogdon pistols start to angle down into the handle within 1/4" of the end of the barrel.
The commercial locks are too long and too fat in the tails for that profile. Currently, the only historically accurate option is to buy castings from Blackley's, TRS, or Chris Hirsch. Chris has a nice pistol-sized lock but it is of a late flint design not found on Wogdons. However, for early 19th century duelers it should be fine. Not all Wogdon's pistols had safety bolts so that feature is not required.
Not all dueling pistols had single set or "hair" triggers but the vast majority did after 1780. The best option is the single set trigger made by Davis but you will want to file away the scroll stuff on back of the trigger. For Wogdons, you also want to bend the trigger straight down into a "stick" trigger. I am not sure if Log Cabin is still selling them but it is a really good option.
Hardware mounts are either steel, iron, or real silver, never brass or German silver. Some of the short cast steel pipes are fine but you want them 5/16" not 3/8" in diameter. Making them from sheet steel is also an option. Some pistols had but caps. On Wogdons, these were usually simple round or tear drop shaped caps held on with a screw into the end. Occasionally, pommel handled pistols were made often mounted in silver. However, most probably had no caps at all. Trigger guards are a problem. No one makes a correct guard. They all have bows too small. Dueling pistols had large bows around the trigger. During the 1770s-1790s the acorn finial would be common. Beginning in the 1780s until the end of the flint era, the pineapple finial dominated. A few silver mounted pistols had unique cast finials but the acorn and pineapple were the most common by far.
I had to weld up my own because there are no good commercial options. Hooked breeches with barrel keys are universal. The heads of the keys are usually shield shaped, not ovals. Commercial cast keys will work can be shaped correctly. Get the thinnest you can. Otherwise make them from flat steel bar. They are always slotted and pinned to the stock. Side plates are usually replaced by simple washers of steel or silver. A few pistols had elaborate side plates usually of silver.
Stocks are English walnut although American black walnut will do in a pinch. They are made very plain and the vast majority of true dueling pistols had no carving. Wogdons are almost always full stocked although a few half stocked examples are known from late in his career. They also may have been altered later in their working lives. The famous Hamilton-Burr pistols were almost certainly full stocked in wood. The heavy brass fore stocks on them now were added later and butchered the elegance and handling of the pistols .
The handles were either bag or cane handle types although some had pommels. Wogdon flattened the sides of his cane handles and those flats blended smoothly with the tails of the lock and side plate panels. I discussed the "Wogdon square" previously. Unlike horse pistols, dueling pistol handles often do not extend below your palm when held. No extra wood is left anywhere. No silver wire, maybe simple oval barrel key escutcheons, no muzzle caps. A simple silver wrist plate was sometimes installed to be engraved with the owner's monogram. Frequently, particularly late in the 18th century, the grips were checkered. First, the coarse early style and later fine more modern looking checkering.
Barrels are browned and the stub, stub twist, and Damascus barrels used showed brilliant and beautiful patterns. The locks and iron and steel hardware were likely charcoal blued. One bill shown in O'Sullivan and Bailey's book indicate Wogdon offered colored case hardening. Stocks were varnished and had a satin or slightly glossy finish. No modern dull "in the wood" oil finishes were used. Finally, all trigger guards, butt caps, standing breeches, and barrel breeches were engraved. No poor boy pistols here.
picture upload sites
I hope you enjoyed this little essay and deep dive into a nice pair of Wogdon pistols. It was fun to share this.
dave
All this brings me to the topic of how do you build pistols like these and in particular, like Wogdon's? The pithy short answer is, it is not easy. I am just going to focus on British dueling pistols from the fourth quarter of the 18th century. No other guns. Let's start with the easy stuff. There are great barrels by Rice, Rayl, and Hoyt that are perfect. Any nicely swamped octagon pistol barrel between 9 and 10" will work. Ideally, they should be smooth bored but given we don't fight duels today, rifled barrels make fine target pistols. Here are two from Rayl.
For Wogdon's early "French" barrels, you need to find nice tapered or swamped round barrels 8-10" long. You want the barrels to be at least 7/8" at the breech but 1" is better. Filing the top flat is not hard but it takes some skill to keep it even. Octagon to round barrels were rarely used after about 1770 and before the dueling pistol fully evolved. Lugs can be soldered or mortised but it is best to make the loops at least 1/8" wide. Standing breeches were always fitted. It is harder to find them now and few have the proper lugs on the bottoms. TRS sells some that are the right size.
Contrary to rubbish occasionally encountered in print and online, British pistols made for dueling had front and rear sights. The sights were usually shaped to allow quick aim and snap shooting but they also could facilitate deliberate aim. On Wogdons, the rear sight is part of the standing breech and is fixed. On the pair I made, I dove tailed them into the barrel so they could be adjusted since the owner was a target shooter. Wogdon's rear sights had a wide "U", narrow "U", "V" notch or a combination of those things. The front sight may be mortised in place or mounted on a dovetailed base that could be adjusted for windage. The sight was not soldered on the barrel.
The biggest problem are the locks. Nobody makes a good pistol lock the right shape and size. They are all too big and awkwardly shaped. Most dueling pistol locks are less than 4 1/2" long and ideally about 4 1/4" and they are all flat faced. That rules out all commercially made locks except the Davis "Becky" lock, which is no longer available and would need a lot of work to bring it up to the standard of originals. Here is a photo showing Chambers late Ketland, Rice's new so-called "Nock" lock, and one of Wogdons locks. Admittedly, the Wogdon lock is on the small size for later dueling pistols but only by about 1/2".
Some folks use L&R's Bailes or "Baby Manton" lock. It is still too long and has a slightly curved plate that usually results in awkward looking pistols. You cannot achieve the Wogdon profile with any of those locks because Wogdon pistols start to angle down into the handle within 1/4" of the end of the barrel.
The commercial locks are too long and too fat in the tails for that profile. Currently, the only historically accurate option is to buy castings from Blackley's, TRS, or Chris Hirsch. Chris has a nice pistol-sized lock but it is of a late flint design not found on Wogdons. However, for early 19th century duelers it should be fine. Not all Wogdon's pistols had safety bolts so that feature is not required.
Not all dueling pistols had single set or "hair" triggers but the vast majority did after 1780. The best option is the single set trigger made by Davis but you will want to file away the scroll stuff on back of the trigger. For Wogdons, you also want to bend the trigger straight down into a "stick" trigger. I am not sure if Log Cabin is still selling them but it is a really good option.
Hardware mounts are either steel, iron, or real silver, never brass or German silver. Some of the short cast steel pipes are fine but you want them 5/16" not 3/8" in diameter. Making them from sheet steel is also an option. Some pistols had but caps. On Wogdons, these were usually simple round or tear drop shaped caps held on with a screw into the end. Occasionally, pommel handled pistols were made often mounted in silver. However, most probably had no caps at all. Trigger guards are a problem. No one makes a correct guard. They all have bows too small. Dueling pistols had large bows around the trigger. During the 1770s-1790s the acorn finial would be common. Beginning in the 1780s until the end of the flint era, the pineapple finial dominated. A few silver mounted pistols had unique cast finials but the acorn and pineapple were the most common by far.
I had to weld up my own because there are no good commercial options. Hooked breeches with barrel keys are universal. The heads of the keys are usually shield shaped, not ovals. Commercial cast keys will work can be shaped correctly. Get the thinnest you can. Otherwise make them from flat steel bar. They are always slotted and pinned to the stock. Side plates are usually replaced by simple washers of steel or silver. A few pistols had elaborate side plates usually of silver.
Stocks are English walnut although American black walnut will do in a pinch. They are made very plain and the vast majority of true dueling pistols had no carving. Wogdons are almost always full stocked although a few half stocked examples are known from late in his career. They also may have been altered later in their working lives. The famous Hamilton-Burr pistols were almost certainly full stocked in wood. The heavy brass fore stocks on them now were added later and butchered the elegance and handling of the pistols .
The handles were either bag or cane handle types although some had pommels. Wogdon flattened the sides of his cane handles and those flats blended smoothly with the tails of the lock and side plate panels. I discussed the "Wogdon square" previously. Unlike horse pistols, dueling pistol handles often do not extend below your palm when held. No extra wood is left anywhere. No silver wire, maybe simple oval barrel key escutcheons, no muzzle caps. A simple silver wrist plate was sometimes installed to be engraved with the owner's monogram. Frequently, particularly late in the 18th century, the grips were checkered. First, the coarse early style and later fine more modern looking checkering.
Barrels are browned and the stub, stub twist, and Damascus barrels used showed brilliant and beautiful patterns. The locks and iron and steel hardware were likely charcoal blued. One bill shown in O'Sullivan and Bailey's book indicate Wogdon offered colored case hardening. Stocks were varnished and had a satin or slightly glossy finish. No modern dull "in the wood" oil finishes were used. Finally, all trigger guards, butt caps, standing breeches, and barrel breeches were engraved. No poor boy pistols here.
picture upload sites
I hope you enjoyed this little essay and deep dive into a nice pair of Wogdon pistols. It was fun to share this.
dave
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While sights were used I seem to recall that it was considered poor form to take carefull aim. viz' Dwell apon the aim' ,& rather just up and fire or delope if befitting the occasion . The whole affair being light years from' High Noon.'
Regards Rudyard
To' delope' is the choice of a participant to empty his pistol in the air though he might have the advantage if haveing been shot at first . The seconds job was besides examining pistols was to try dissuade the participants from getting to the shooting bit . The surgeons job was obvious . R
Regards Rudyard
To' delope' is the choice of a participant to empty his pistol in the air though he might have the advantage if haveing been shot at first . The seconds job was besides examining pistols was to try dissuade the participants from getting to the shooting bit . The surgeons job was obvious . R
Wow! Congrats on acquiring those. The many subtilties and nuances you point out would, I'm sure, be missed by most of us, myself included. Thanks for showing those to us.
Dave, I own a Wogdon long rifle that was said to have been presented to British officers as a personal hunting rifle. Some of the engraving is identical to a pic you showed for the trigger guard. I’d love to find out more about it and possibly have it restored. Any help in resources would be greatly appreciated..you can contact me at [email protected]
There's a Wogdon percussion rifle for sale on Gunbroker right now.
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