Hand built vs production

[Dialn911]

I'm planning on doing a hunt for elk, and want to go flint.
I want something a little nicer than your typical off-the-shelf production rifle, like a traditions or Pedersoli.

But it had me wondering, are hand built rifles typically better than the production lines, or is it a crap shoot?

I was going to post a wanted ad on here for a .50 caliber Pennsylvania long rifle, But I'm new to the forum so it won't let me yet, but I'm still wondering about this question.

I had purchased one, but when it arrived, instead of being a contemporary reproduction like the seller had thought, it turns out it's an original Pennsylvania rifle, with a signed known gun Maker.

I'll post a thread on here to see if I can gather more information on the man's life if anyone has resources on this particular builder, but in the meantime,
I don't want to take an original out hunting and risk damaging it.

so,
now I need to find a suitable replacement to hunt with, but I'm on a time crunch because my hunt starts December 8th.

 

[Trot]

It really depends on the quality of the parts and how well it was built. A well built rifle with a Siler, or Kibler lock, a Rice, Colerain, Long Hammock, barrel that is properly assembled and tuned will be far superior to an off the shelf rifle. One built with an old CVA lock by Bubba with his own three hands may be a nightmare!

 

[Dialn911]

It really depends on the quality of the parts and how well it was built. A well built rifle with a Siler, or Kibler lock, a Rice, Colerain, Long Hammock, barrel that is properly assembled and tuned will be far superior to an off the shelf rifle. One built with an old CVA lock by Bubba with his own three hands may be a nightmare!

The one I'm looking at,
It looks like a decent build utilizing an SMR Stock.
They say the Barrel is custom made 40" .50 with 1:66 twist.

Full history unknown.

Don't know about the lock maker either. Unless you recognize it.

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

Think the post count your looking for is 10. If the one you already acquired is in good shape, why not use it for the season then continue the search for a newer one?

 

[Notchy Bob]

@Dialn911

Welcome to the Muzzleloading Forum!

The rifle pictured in post #3 looks to me like one of the Tennessee rifles that used to be offered by Dixie Gun Works. The specs are similar, the lock looks correct for that rifle, and they used a very distinctive front trigger exactly like that. The only real difference I see is the patch box, which the Dixie rifle did not have. These rifles were available finished or in kit form, and I suspect that rifle may have been Assembled from a kit by a skilled builder, who added the patch box as a personal touch.

The main things to consider with a flintlock are the quality of the lock, the quality of the barrel, and how well the stock fits you. The locks and barrels on the Dixie Tennessee rifles were said to have been pretty good (I never owned one). The stocks were likely designed for “the average shooter,” so if you are of average size, it would probably fit.

The Dixie Tennessee rifles were made in Japan by Miroku, which is a respected manufacturer. This is the same outfit that built classic reproductions of lever-guns for Winchester and Browning. People who own the Dixie Tennessee rifles seem to like them. Since they are a modern production firearm, they are not particularly valuable, although I would consider them a cut above the common T/C, Investarms, and CVA rifles. You should not worry about taking it to the woods. It does not look like an antique original to me.

That‘s what I believe I see, but I am wrong with alarming regularity. Hopefully, some of the other fellows will weigh in and help confirm what you have.

Best of luck to you!

Notchy Bob

 

[Dialn911]

Think the post count your looking for is 10. If the one you already acquired is in good shape, why not use it for the season then continue the search for a newer one?

Well,
at half cock the hammer interfers with the frizzen fully closing with a flint.

at some point the hammer was replaced potentially, but was angled and incorrectly so that would have to be fixed.

And secondly,

Because I found out it is an original Pennsylvania rifle made by John Guest, who is in archives as making cannons during the American revolution for the colonial Army, and was under contract for Thomas Jefferson when he was president, making rifles and pistols.

At first I considered it, but then I thought that would be foolhardy and stupid to take a piece of history on a hunting trip and potentially break something that couldn't be replaced.

I won't cry over a reproduction if it gets damaged.

 

[Dialn911]

@Dialn911

Welcome to the Muzzleloading Forum!

The rifle pictured in post #3 looks to me like one of the Tennessee rifles that used to be offered by Dixie Gun Works. The specs are similar, the lock looks correct for that rifle, and they used a very distinctive front trigger exactly like that. The only real difference I see is the patch box, which the Dixie rifle did not have. These rifles were available finished or in kit form, and I suspect that rifle may have been Assembled from a kit by a skilled builder, who added the patch box as a personal touch.

The main things to consider with a flintlock are the quality of the lock, the quality of the barrel, and how well the stock fits you. The locks and barrels on the Dixie Tennessee rifles were said to have been pretty good (I never owned one). The stocks were likely designed for “the average shooter,” so if you are of average size, it would probably fit.

The Dixie Tennessee rifles were made in Japan by Miroku, which is a respected manufacturer. This is the same outfit that built classic reproductions of lever-guns for Winchester and Browning. People who own the Dixie Tennessee rifles seem to like them. Since they are a modern production firearm, they are not particularly valuable, although I would consider them a cut above the common T/C, Investarms, and CVA rifles. You should not worry about taking it to the woods. It does not look like an antique original to me.

That‘s what I believe I see, but I am wrong with alarming regularity. Hopefully, some of the other fellows will weigh in and help confirm what you have.

Best of luck to you!

Notchy Bob

Thanks Bob,
no I think you're right. the person selling it believes pretty much the same thing other than the barrel looking to be a custom barrel.

I was considering buying a Pedersoli in place of this, until I came across this and thought this would perhaps be a better quality rifle?

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

Well,
at half cock the hammer interfers with the frizzen fully closing with a flint.

at some point the hammer was replaced potentially, but was angled and incorrectly so that would have to be fixed.

And secondly,

Because I found out it is an original Pennsylvania rifle made by John Guest, who is in archives as making cannons during the American revolution for the colonial Army, and was under contract for Thomas Jefferson when he was president, making rifles and pistols.

At first I considered it, but then I thought that would be foolhardy and stupid to take a piece of history on a hunting trip and potentially break something that couldn't be replaced.

I won't cry over a reproduction if it gets damaged.

Wow. I suspected it was due in part to being an original but didn't expect that kind of provenance. I hope it's the real deal when you get it checked out, that'd be something to put it mildly.

 

[Dialn911]

Wow. I suspected it was due to being an original but didn't expect that kind of provenance. I hope it's the real deal when you get it checked out, that'd be something to put it mildly.

I'll have it authenticated.
when you look at his other works and barrels with a signature, it's pretty obvious, especially when You see how the signature is completely smooth and worn on part of it from CLEAR decades and decades of a hand grasping in that Location.

When I received it I quickly realized it was not a reproduction based on the hand made hardware in the furniture and nothing being modern machined whatsoever.

As crazy as that sounds, I actually did think about hunting with it at first, but came to my senses.

Anybody has any information on the Maker more than I could find so far, that would be great, I can't find anything about when he was born and how early he started producing.

Wow. I suspected it was due in part to being an original but didn't expect that kind of provenance. I hope it's the real deal when you get it checked out, that'd be something to put it mildly.

 

[Dialn911]

.

 

[Boomerang]

If you plan on going after elk with round ball, you might want to step up to a .54 cal or bigger. In some states, a .54 round ball in minimum.

 

[Dialn911]

If you plan on going after elk with round ball, you might want to step up to a .54 cal or bigger. In some states, a .54 round ball in minimum.

I'm in Arizona.
here, .50 is perfectly fine and people actually do it quite often. You just make sure it's at least 180 grain and a good charge.

Does fine.

 

[nchawkeye]

I hope you are talking about going after elk in 2024 because you can't get up to speed on using a flintlock in 2 1/2 weeks...As mentioned, go with a .54 or a .58...Buy a Kibler kit in Woodsrunner in .54 or his Colonial in .58...Either will do the job but the WR is about 7 1/2 pounds vs about 8 1/2 if memory serves me correctly...Then you can work up loads and be ready to hunt elk in 2024...

 

[Songwriter]

Would love to see pics of your Guest rifle!

 

[Thingamajiggy]

I would say, in general, hand built would have better quality/reliability then production IF you know the builder and they have a reputation for fine work. If builder is unknown, then probably a wash. A lot of good, reliable production guns out there to be had though. I have/had both production and custom and I like both, my best shooter is by far my TC PA Hunter in .50, will shoot 1 ragged hole at 50yds as long as I do my part right. And as long as I wipe the frizzen and flint off every couple of shots and pick open the flash hole after about 5 shots, will go off everytime.

 

[Rancocas]

Okay, I'm confused.
I agree with Notchy Bob in that the first gun pictured appears to be a Dixie Tennessee Rifle. Certainly not an original antique. The second gun you pictured looks to me to be a short barreled handgun. So, where is this original rifle that you talk about?

I'm another who would go with a larger caliber if I was specifically after elk. .54 or .58 A .50 (.490) lead round ball weighs about 175-176 grains. Of course, it will work on critters as large as elk if you keep within its limits and chose your shots carefully, but I think a .54 or .58 round ball has an edge over the .50 when it comes to game the size of an elk.

IMO a custom hand built rifle, is worlds above any of the common production types. (If the builder knows what he's doing)

I lived in Yuma, AZ back in the 1980's. My son still lives in Tucson.

 

[William Sublette]

I'm in Arizona.
here, .50 is perfectly fine and people actually do it quite often. You just make sure it's at least 180 grain and a good charge.

Does fine.

If your going to try for elk you should look for a 54, or 58.

 

[Phil Coffins]

Dialn911, I also would recommend a larger calibre for elk. My last elk hunt I called a nice bull in to 40 yards and he stopped broadside to me. My 58 round ball hit in the ribs and he moved about fifteen feet forward and stood there. When he walked away I went to that spot and found a blood pool that my cowboy hat wouldn’t cover. I tracked him for over a quarter mile then went to camp for help. The four of us worked that mountain side for hours but couldn’t find him. I spent the next two days reworking that area. I didn’t find him, and felt tremendously sad about it still.

 

[ronaldrothb49]

If you fall into the average size that production guns are made for, Height, arm length and body mass then a production gun will work fine. if you are like me they just don't fit. That is why I got into building my own rifles. I can custom build a rifle that fits me and I shoot much better with them.

 

[BuffaloSoldier]

If it's what you have, practice, practice and more practice. You got to dance with the one that brought you. So might as well get cozy!