Hand built vs production

[Commodore Swab]

A lot has been said regarding quality locks and known builders. The purpose of the lock is simply to ignite the powder. A quality lock can still have reliability issues and a junk lock can be made reliable. It's more important to have a reliable lock, a quality lock should be reliable but not always. Considering you intend to hunt the most important part is your barrel and knowing what and how you intend to hunt should dictate your barrel option. Beyond that is your stock and this is where the gunsmith comes in as the stock is the glue that holds everything together. Some glues are horrid yet others allow everything to compliment and flow together. Only thing left is time period but that is ones personal choice. I guess that covers lock stock and barrel, just don't go off half cocked.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

The one I'm looking at,
It looks like a decent build utilizing an SMR Stock.
They say the Barrel is custom made 40" .50 with 1:66 twist.

Full history unknown.

Don't know about the lock maker either. Unless you recognize it.

This is a bone stock Dixie Gun Works Tennessee rifle. Not an original.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I've never hunted elk, but I've seen a bunch of them hiking in the western states, especially Arizona. They are big animals. So. I can't speak from experience, but in listening to those who have hunted elk with muzzleloaders, I would take their advice.

State laws typically address the minimum legal ball size or caliber. Here in Florida, you can legally hunt deer with a .30 caliber muzzleloader. That is not a typo. There is no minimum projectile weight here that I could find. Granted, our whitetails here are smaller than those in many other places, but there is no way I would hunt deer with a .30 caliber round ball, even though it is legal.

A lot of these guys have hunted elk with muzzleloaders. I would take their advice.

Notchy Bob

 

[Beaverman2]

You guys that have NEVER shot an Elk with a RB have no clue on caliber, I have taken 6 Elk in the past and have all been with a 50, I have talked with many traditional ML hunters here in WA state over the last 30 years and 90% that have dropped an Elk have done so with a 50, A monster caliber RB do not take the place of quality shot placement, of the 6 Elk I have taken I had to track 1, all the rest have died within 10 yards from where they were shot, 50 cal will do the trick!

 

[William Sublette]

Here's a sweet. 50 for sale.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/custom-50cal.172069/#post-2481679

 

[Patched]

You guys that have NEVER shot an Elk with a RB have no clue on caliber, I have taken 6 Elk in the past and have all been with a 50, I have talked with many traditional ML hunters here in WA state over the last 30 years and 90% that have dropped an Elk have done so with a 50, A monster caliber RB do not take the place of quality shot placement, of the 6 Elk I have taken I had to track 1, all the rest have died within 10 yards from where they were shot, 50 cal will do the trick!

Not to disparage your smaller balls, but here in Nevada bigger balls have a scientifically verifiable advantage over smaller balls…starting with .535 balls, sectional density, weight, momentum and down range energy are significantly higher than a .490 ball…
I’ve only killed one elk with a
muzzleloader …but I have 54 RBed my share of muleys…and when I started 50 yrs ago 50 cal seemed huge and awesome…till a 1:72 twist 54 cal proved that 54 cal actually is huge and awesome.

 

[Dialn911]

Would love to see pics of your Guest rifle!

I'll get some for you.

 

[Dialn911]

Okay, I'm confused.
I agree with Notchy Bob in that the first gun pictured appears to be a Dixie Tennessee Rifle. Certainly not an original antique. The second gun you pictured looks to me to be a short barreled handgun. So, where is this original rifle that you talk about?

I'm another who would go with a larger caliber if I was specifically after elk. .54 or .58 A .50 (.490) lead round ball weighs about 175-176 grains. Of course, it will work on critters as large as elk if you keep within its limits and chose your shots carefully, but I think a .54 or .58 round ball has an edge over the .50 when it comes to game the size of an elk.

IMO a custom hand built rifle, is worlds above any of the common production types. (If the builder knows what he's doing)

I lived in Yuma, AZ back in the 1980's. My son still lives in Tucson.

There's 2 posts, there's a post above where I showed the rifle I was considering buying, and there's another post that is talking about my original with an example of the builder's work which is a pistol with his signature.

 

[Dialn911]

A lot has been said regarding quality locks and known builders. The purpose of the lock is simply to ignite the powder. A quality lock can still have reliability issues and a junk lock can be made reliable. It's more important to have a reliable lock, a quality lock should be reliable but not always. Considering you intend to hunt the most important part is your barrel and knowing what and how you intend to hunt should dictate your barrel option. Beyond that is your stock and this is where the gunsmith comes in as the stock is the glue that holds everything together. Some glues are horrid yet others allow everything to compliment and flow together. Only thing left is time period but that is ones personal choice. I guess that covers lock stock and barrel, just don't go off half cocked.

Speaking of half cocked, I just found out from the seller of the rifle I was looking at, it's a double set trigger, but he says there's no half ****. he says you have to fully **** It and then prime it, which sounds very peculiar to me.

You G
guys ever heard of this type of set up?

It's making me wonder that perhaps this has a mechanical issue at half ****.

 

[Dialn911]

This is a bone stock Dixie Gun Works Tennessee rifle. Not an original.

Yes, we figured it was a Dixie rifle, the original is a different post in the thread.

 

[ADK Bigfoot]

I HAVE a caplock with the same type of trigger. It takes a little orientation, but once you use it a bit it becomes natural. Set, half-****, cap (or prime), then go to full **** when needed. The half-****, if solid, will keep you safe.

ADK Bigfoot

 

[Dialn911]

Not to disparage your smaller balls, but here in Nevada bigger balls have a scientifically verifiable advantage over smaller balls…starting with .535 balls, sectional density, weight, momentum and down range energy are significantly higher than a .490 ball…
I’ve only killed one elk with a
muzzleloader …but I have 54 RBed my share of muleys…and when I started 50 yrs ago 50 cal seemed huge and awesome…till a 1:72 twist 54 cal proved that 54 cal actually is huge and awesome.

I understand .54 caliber gives some advantage.

I'm not opposed to using 54 caliber necessarily, but I think some people get way too caught up Between 50 and 54.

You put that ball where it needs to go, and it's going to do the job.

but it seems a lot of people in here are under the impression that you need a massive ball to take an elk, that's not correct.
A 50 caliber 180 grain ball is more than sufficient with reasonable range to take elk and does it all the time all over the country.

50 caliber is probably the most common used patch in ball size for hunting Elk. It was used quite often historically during that era as well.

In fact,
.45 ball can be used to take elk and does so quite often, although I would go with a minimum of 50, that's just my preference.

The only state that requires .54 ball is Colorado.

Yes,
.54 has some advantages, but it's not as massive as some people think.

A 180 grain .50 round ball with a 90 or 100 grain charge, is absolutely capable and perfectly fine for taking Elk.

 

[Dialn911]

I HAVE a caplock with the same type of trigger. It takes a little orientation, but once you use it a bit it becomes natural. Set, half-****, cap (or prime), then go to full **** when needed. The half-****, if solid, will keep you safe.

ADK Bigfoot

The seller just told me it doesn't have a half ****, you have to prime after fully cocking, which sounds sketchy to me......

 

[Dialn911]

Dialn911, I also would recommend a larger calibre for elk. My last elk hunt I called a nice bull in to 40 yards and he stopped broadside to me. My 58 round ball hit in the ribs and he moved about fifteen feet forward and stood there. When he walked away I went to that spot and found a blood pool that my cowboy hat wouldn’t cover. I tracked him for over a quarter mile then went to camp for help. The four of us worked that mountain side for hours but couldn’t find him. I spent the next two days reworking that area. I didn’t find him, and felt tremendously sad about it still.

Honestly, that to me like an issue of shot placement, not caliber.

That's unfortunate.

Had it hit into the lung or heart area, it's highly improbable that would have happened, but we can't always guarantee where our shots are going to hit unfortunately.

 

[Dialn911]

If you fall into the average size that production guns are made for, Height, arm length and body mass then a production gun will work fine. if you are like me they just don't fit. That is why I got into building my own rifles. I can custom build a rifle that fits me and I shoot much better with them.

I'm 5-9, so it sounds like the average rifle would fit just fine.

 

[Dialn911]

I've never hunted elk, but I've seen a bunch of them hiking in the western states, especially Arizona. They are big animals. So. I can't speak from experience, but in listening to those who have hunted elk with muzzleloaders, I would take their advice.

State laws typically address the minimum legal ball size or caliber. Here in Florida, you can legally hunt deer with a .30 caliber muzzleloader. That is not a typo. There is no minimum projectile weight here that I could find. Granted, our whitetails here are smaller than those in many other places, but there is no way I would hunt deer with a .30 caliber round ball, even though it is legal.

A lot of these guys have hunted elk with muzzleloaders. I would take their advice.

Notchy Bob

That's actually why I started at .50, when I went into muzzle loading forums to talk to muzzy Elk hunters, .50 was the most common.
yes, you can go bigger, but there's advantages and disadvantages to both.

You also have to take this stuff with a grain of salt, if you ask people what kind of handgun you need for Alaska, everyone tells you you need some giant hand cannon, when in reality a lot of different choices work.

Theres even people that will tell you emphatically that a .357 magnum can't kill a Grizzly bear,
when hardcast bullets in .357 magnums have a long history of killing Grizzlies.

Opinions on calibers is a very weird and oftentimes passionate topic of debate.

 

[Dialn911]

You guys that have NEVER shot an Elk with a RB have no clue on caliber, I have taken 6 Elk in the past and have all been with a 50, I have talked with many traditional ML hunters here in WA state over the last 30 years and 90% that have dropped an Elk have done so with a 50, A monster caliber RB do not take the place of quality shot placement, of the 6 Elk I have taken I had to track 1, all the rest have died within 10 yards from where they were shot, 50 cal will do the trick!

Yeah, I don't know where this idea came from that you need a massive round ball.

It's like you point out, there's hunters on shooting round ball for decades with 50 caliber, it was done back in the era as well.
50 caliber is a proven size that has been known to kill elf just fine.

If you put it where it needs to go, it's going to penetrate deep enough to get to the vitals.

A bad shot into the shoulder can render the same poor outcome in .54 and .50.

A .50 in the vitals is going to do the trick, when you go hunting with a 308, it's only a 30 caliber bullet, and if it hits the vitals You're good, and while I understand round ball is not a modern jacket hunting round, once it penetrates into the vitals it does mushroom out and 50 is plenty big.

Infact,
Elk get taken all the time with a .45 patched ball.

 

[Dialn911]

Here's a sweet. 50 for sale.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/custom-50cal.172069/#post-2481679

Bummer, looking for a Flint.

 

[Dialn911]

Would love to see pics of your Guest rifle!

Here you go...

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Lancaster gun. Made 1790-1810. Probably worth 5K give or take 1K.