hand cast ball accuracy?

[Zonie]

The swaged balls are made by a machine that feeds a solid lead rod into a die and then compresses it into a spherical shape very similar to the swaging process bullets are made with by the millions. What could be more precision than that?

Cast balls, being made by pouring molten lead into a mold and letting it harden can vary in size because of the temperature variations and pureness of the lead and they can develop voids internally as they cool if they develop a "cold shut" that prevents additional molten lead from filling the voids. What could have more room for variation than that?

With this in mind imagine my surprise when I actually started weighing the swaged balls and found over 4 grains of variation between them.

This great variation caused me to think, "Well, my cast style balls must be all over the place."

Again I was surprised as the cast balls I made (and not the best job of it either) varied about 1 grain.

I was so surprised I measured a bunch of .30 caliber solid lead bullets I bought from a large company and they all weighed within 1 grain of each other.

I still haven't figured out why the variation with the swaged balls and I did notice that Hornady's and Speer's both have the problem with their weights.

Anyway, unless a person is a lot better marksman than I am and they are shooting for big prizes or money I don't think shooting cast or swaged makes any noticeable difference.

IMO, the big thing to keep in mind is that shooting roundballs is more fun and costs less than shooting bullets. :grin:

 

[Dphar]

The swaged balls are made by a machine that feeds a solid lead rod into a die and then compresses it into a spherical shape very similar to the swaging process bullets are made with by the millions. What could be more precision than that?

:grin:

If you think they are precision then you have looked close or measured many. They generally have a "belt" that is reduced, somewhat at least, at the factory by tumbling or vibrating. Thats why they all look like they do. If I vibrate pure lead 16 bore balls in my case "tumbler" it will beat the sprues down till they are not detectable.
They look just like "swaged" balls then.
Dan

 

[paulvallandigham]

Jim: You need to keep in mind what percentage a 4 grain difference in weight represents to the total weight of the ball. 4 grains in a .50 caliber, 180 grain ball represents about 2% of the total weight. Until you get above 5% of total weight, you are not likely to see much of a change in POI.

But, compare this to 4 grains in a 45 grain ball for the .32 caliber rifles. That is almost 9% of the total weight of the ball, and you could expect to see some change in POI using balls that far out from the average weight.

I don't know of anyone who has weighed swaged .310 diameter RBs for their .32 rifles that has found a 4 grains variation, BTW.

 

[tnlonghunter]

Sometimes discovering the " Truth" all by yourself is the best education you will get. I haven't suggested to these guys that the .50 caliber guns will shoot very accurately with 27 grains of 3Fg, or that the .54 Caliber guns will shoot well with 35 grains of 3Fg, or that the .58 will shoot well with only 40 grains of 3Fg powder. If they think shooting a 25 yard target requires them to load 90 grains of 3Fg in that .58, well, who am I to argue with their " expertise?"

All I want is a chance to shoot in a " money " match with these guys. I can use the extra loot! :grin:

Thanks for the info, Paul. I'm almost never gonna do bench shooting, except when working up a load for a rifle. I find it boring, and I find that if I can shoot well off-hand, then I'm pretty likely to be able to shoot well enough off a rest when needed.

I've also begun to discover this truth you mention. I'm slowly reducing my target shooting/plinking powder charge and find that I like it much more.

 

[Dphar]

I've got to order stuff from TOTW so I figure I'll just order RB's at the same time. I've always shot Hornady swagged balls, but I figured I might try the hand-cast ones since they're a little cheaper. I don't cast my own, so I have no experience shooting them. Is there any reason to believe the swagged are more accurate than the hand cast, and therefore worth the extra money?

Store bought cast balls are probably not as accurate.
However, balls carefully cast, weighed within +- 1 grain and properly loaded will *probably* outshoot the swaged balls for reason I stated in a previous post. However, swaged balls will produce very good accuracy.

In my research, which involved milling through good and "cull" bullets (400 gr 40 cal BPCR bullets) .010" at a time, bullets more than 1 grain light from the nominal for the casting session will almost certainly contain serious flaws that will effect accuracy.
HOWEVER. Slow twist round ball barrels will show less deviation than a faster twist barrel would.
But the error will still be there.
Weighing balls to +- 2 or 5 grains is a waste of time IMO. With a good mould, a good melting pot, a uniform casting technique and careful attention to metal and mould temerature it is easy to get balls within 1 grain for 90% or more of production.

Dan

 

[paulvallandigham]

I don't think you can brand all store bought cast balls and bullets bad. I do weigh a sample of any I buy, before using them, but like others here, I have had "good luck" with purchased Cast Balls. They are NO more wider in weigh variations than I find with Swaged balls.

I do agree with Dan that carefully cast bullets or balls, using good technique will give you a superior ball that falls within that plus/minus 1 grain standard. Just remember that some Target shooters will sort even these down, whether they are shootings balls or bullets, to plus/minus .1 grain! If you look at their record books, they have data that convinces themselves that this degree of control makes a difference. :thumbsup:

 

[R.M.]

....they have data that convinces themselves that this degree of control makes a difference. :thumbsup:

I think you just hit the nail on the head Paul. If you believe in something enough, then it will make a difference.

 

[paulvallandigham]

That was not meant by me to be a criticism. Like you, I believe the mental aspects of shooting are more important than the physical, so I take a lot of this stuff with LOTS of Salt thrown over my shoulder! I am a professional skeptic- I can't help it.

BUT- and this is a HUGE BUT--- I have seen some amazing shooting done time and again by these men and women, and I am not going to try to tell them they are fooling themselves. I haven't earned that right by walking in their shoes for a few miles.

If you really want to read something interesting, read the opening section to the Black Powder Cartridge Reloading Manual, by Garbe, and Venturino, where they give very detailed instruction on how they load cartridges to obtain Minute of Angle groups at 200 yds, and beyond, using .45 caliber rifles, huge bullets, and lots of powder, aiming with the help of a Tang Peep sight, and a Globe Front sight. The minutia they discuss there should blow your mind. But, they tell you why these small things make a difference down range. These are long range rifle shooting Fanatics, and Mr. Garbe won three national Metallic Cartridge Silhouette Shooting Titles for Black Powder back in the 1980s, and '90s. Mike is a columnist for Guns Magazine, and others. They know of which they speak( and write.)

Because so little information was written and preserved about loading MLing rifles before the mid 19th century, we have lost the kind of information that would explain some of the extra-ordinary shooting reported in various battle. With the popularity of the BP cartridge shooting sports, where a little bit more information has been found, we are re-inventing accurate Rifle, and Smoothrifle shooting "backwards", by taking ideas suggested or recommended for the Early BP cartridge rifles, and applying them to MLers.

Is This information necessary to shoot a rifle at close ranges and have fun?? Heck NO! But it is kind of nice and comforting to know that these guns are capable of far more accuracy they we even dream, or ever ask, of them. :thumbsup:

As to the men and women who labor to eek out every last bit of accuracy from MLers, MORE POWER TO THEM! We are doubly blessed that they share their information( and beliefs) with us, so we can try out new ideas in our own guns. :hatsoff:

 

[R.M.]

I don't doubt what you're telling us here Paul, but I think we're talking about shooting round balls at probably no more than 100 yards.

 

[hanshi]

For the life of me I just can't tell a real difference between swaged and cast ball accuracy. My smallest groups and best shooting has been with cast ball but then I haven't really shot that much bought swaged ball. I never weigh cast balls; I only visually inspect for obvious defects. Also 60 yards or so is about the farthest I shoot on a regular basis.

It may matter to die-hard target shooters but for hunting, informal competition, etc., it's basically irrelevant. I do know it would take a much better shooter than me. We generally limit our round ball hunting to distances not over, say, 150 yards. It would take at least this distance for small variations to affect accuracy. While the prb is accurate well past that range, most keep hunting shots closer to assure clean, humane kills. In battle a hit is a hit. A man hit at 300 yards with a prb is pretty much out of action at the very least. We want game down and out and not just out of action.

For these reasons cast ball can be considered ideal. And for the same reasons, IMHO, weighing & sorting ball for anything other than serious target competition is a waste of time. Seems to me too much work makes less fun.

 

[Dphar]

I have shot a lot of both and when I am shooting carefully cast balls, I can see no difference. To get good cast balls, you must have the lead at the right temperature, the mold at the right temperature and use a good technique when filling the mold. This will insure that the balls do not have caveties in them and are not misshapen. When I cast a batch of balls, I carefully cull the first several to make sure that the mold has reached the proper temperature and I cull any that do not look right. When I am casting nice round shiny balls, I am in the groove and I become a casting machine. Once the balls are cool, I like to put them into a rock tumbler and tumble them for an hour or so. Make sure that the inside of the tumbler is clean and contains no tumbling media tht could get imbeded into the outside of the balls. When I do this, they come out looking like dark ball bearings. The tumbling seems to even out the spru marks until they are no longer visable.

I also like to weigh about a hundred random balls to make sure that they are all the same weight. If I have been careful in my casting, they are spot on within a grain or two of each other. When you are shooting cast balls like this, they are every bit as good as the swaged balls.

I would not tumble bullets I expected best accuracy from.
I do this for hunting balls since I don't have to look for a sprue when loading. But they will be a little out of round from the sprue being beat down.

Dan

 

[Semisane]

I recently acquired a used .535 ball mold, one of those aluminum Lee double cavity jobs. It was in great condition. In my first casting session - after culling the obvious defects - I had 211 good balls. I was bored this evening and decided to weigh/sort them just for the heck of it. Here's what I got.

. .Weight Range. . . . .No. of Balls . . . Percent

235.0 to 235.9 grains . . . . 78 . . . . 37%
234.0 to 234.9 grains . . . . 93 . . . . 44%
233.0 to 233.9 grains . . . . 27 . . . . 13%
232.0 to 232.9 grains . . . . 13 . . . . 6%

I think that's real good with 81% of the balls from two different cavities ending up in the top two-grain spread (234 to 235.9) and 94% being within a three-grain spread (233 to 235.9). I probably should just toss those under 233 grains back into the pot, but I think I'll shoot a ten-shot group with them just to see how they do.

 

[BrownBear]

I probably should just toss those under 233 grains back into the pot, but I think I'll shoot a ten-shot group with them just to see how they do.

Now yer talkin.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Considering how small these lighter balls differ from the majority, in .54 caliber( 233-235 grains weights), don't expect to see much of a different POI, or group size firing the smaller balls. If it were me, based on all the testing I did years ago to answer the same questions for myself, I would not bother to sort those balls. Just shoot them, and have fun! :thumbsup:

 

[bebloomster]

I've been casting my own ball for going on 40 years now. Always used either Lyman or RCBS molds as I just don't like the aluminum ones. I prefer 4 cavity molds when I can find them as I sell a lot of round ball at the local rondezvous events.