Handgonnes

[thesethawa]

Hi all. I've been into guns my whole life, and I always loved the history of them I watched lock n load and Guns of the World growing up on TV. I recently got my hands on a crude technical drawing of a medieval handgonne taken from some archeological site, and I decided I wanted a real one... So I sent it to a machinist to have a barrel made.

The original design had a sub caliber chamber at at the rear of the barrel for the powder. I did some rough estimation, and the minimum charge to fill that chamber is roughly 2.3 drams. Is that a hefty charge? I never use drams, so I don't know. The gonne is right at .70 caliber.

 

[thesethawa]

What would this translate to in grains like on a powder measure?

 

[flintlock75]

The powder used back then was very crude, large grains of variable performance. I would suggest using 1F powder, it’s bulky without overloading. At .70 cal, I would use a .690 patched lead ball. 2.3 drams is about 62 grains. Be sure to proof the barrel from a safe distance.

 

[earlwb]

I dram is about 27.34 grains. So 2.3 drams would be 62.882 grains. That is by volume not weight. Our current powder measures for black powder do it by volume not weight.

 

[thesethawa]

The powder used back then was very crude, large grains of variable performance. I would suggest using 1F powder, it’s bulky without overloading. At .70 cal, I would use a .690 patched lead ball. 2.3 drams is about 62 grains. Be sure to proof the barrel from a safe distance.

While that is definitely true, metal was also significantly worse. Iron back then was far from homogeneous, and they were also made by wrapping a bar around a mandrel and forge welding the seam. A modern piece would be completely monolithic, and made from vastly superior steel. I think 2f would probably be okay for a 62 grain charge in a barrel this short

 

[TobJohn]

Serpentine powder, which was used in handgonnes for a significant period also burns differently and is very small grained, compared to modern powder.

It’s better not to buy from Amazon, but I would recommend this book:
Medieval Handgonnes: The first black powder infantry weapons: McLachlan, Sean, Embleton, Gerry, Embleton, Sam: 9781849081559: Amazon.com: Books
A large part of it is actually the evolution of European gun powder.

 

[thesethawa]

I'll definitely check it out. Thanks for the literature.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Nowadays, 2mm hobby safety fuse is used by handgonne shooters to simulate the smoldering effect of serpentine priming powder.

 

[thesethawa]

Everyone do as you will with this

 

[TobJohn]

Here is an interesting bit of experimental archeology on firing handgonnes:
The influence of preliminary period in handgonne shooting - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

 

[earlwb]

Nowadays, 2mm hobby safety fuse is used by handgonne shooters to simulate the smoldering effect of serpentine priming powder.

I think it is safer to use the cannon or hobby safety fuse to fire matchlocks at present. Being how black powder can ignite with little provocation having a hot glowing cord smoldering nearby is a recipe for disaster. With fuses you have no open flame until you are ready to shoot. It is a lot of trouble keeping the smoldering cord away when loading a match lock and people being people will start taking dangerous shortcuts. Anyway it is quite interesting how some of the match locks work.

 

[earlwb]

Here is an interesting bit of experimental archeology on firing handgonnes:
The influence of preliminary period in handgonne shooting - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

I suspect the artists were using their artistry to only show the handgonne shooters. They left out the supporting people that help them to make for better pictures. Thus we only see the shooters in their artwork. The help was not important to the narrative they were painting or drawing and their story they were telling. I would expect the shooter held and aimed the gun while his assistant ignited the charge with a hot poker or cord. Later they added the serpentine arm to hold the cord so that the shooter could fire it himself. That then evolved into the matchlock.

 

[thesethawa]

I think it is safer to use the cannon or hobby safety fuse to fire matchlocks at present. Being how black powder can ignite with little provocation having a hot glowing cord smoldering nearby is a recipe for disaster. With fuses you have no open flame until you are ready to shoot. It is a lot of trouble keeping the smoldering cord away when loading a match lock and people being people will start taking dangerous shortcuts. Anyway it is quite interesting how some of the match locks work.

That's why the old musketeers carried their powder in pre measured charges in wood bottles. It's a lot safer to not have a grenade sized jug of powder on you when you have to carry a hot ember.

 

[earlwb]

That's why the old musketeers carried their powder in pre measured charges in wood bottles. It's a lot safer to not have a grenade sized jug of powder on you when you have to carry a hot ember.

I suspect that they had a third person, probably a kid, carrying a jug of powder, extra shot, ram rod, wet swabs, dry swabs, etc too.

 

[TobJohn]

I suspect the artists were using their artistry to only show the handgonne shooters. They left out the supporting people that help them to make for better pictures. Thus we only see the shooters in their artwork. The help was not important to the narrative they were painting or drawing and their story they were telling. I would expect the shooter held and aimed the gun while his assistant ignited the charge with a hot poker or cord. Later they added the serpentine arm to hold the cord so that the shooter could fire it himself. That then evolved into the matchlock.

I would mostly agree, but it does seem to address a question that did exist, the large touch holes, and also work. My biggest confusion with it is that my own understanding is that by the time handgonnes with long barrels, stocks, and touch holes on the side came into use, so had corned powder, and it looks like a couple of the painting show that style.

I am still building my own handgonne and have zero desire to make serpentine powder, so I won’t try to prove it right or wrong haha. The book I linked does talk about shooting with it tucked under your arm and taking a match to it and that it actually is pretty practical, so the fuse affect and a buddy may not have even been needed.

 

[TobJohn]

That's why the old musketeers carried their powder in pre measured charges in wood bottles. It's a lot safer to not have a grenade sized jug of powder on you when you have to carry a hot ember.

14th-15th c.: How Powder and Ball etc. Were Kept Before Powder Flasks Appeared - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

This link that Pukka Bundook shared in another thread goes through the evolution of powder storage for gunners. For the early years, the methods definitely seemed less than safe.

 

[thesethawa]

I would mostly agree, but it does seem to address a question that did exist, the large touch holes, and also work. My biggest confusion with it is that my own understanding is that by the time handgonnes with long barrels, stocks, and touch holes on the side came into use, so had corned powder, and it looks like a couple of the painting show that style.

I am still building my own handgonne and have zero desire to make serpentine powder, so I won’t try to prove it right or wrong haha. The book I linked does talk about shooting with it tucked under your arm and taking a match to it and that it actually is pretty practical, so the fuse affect and a buddy may not have even been needed.

I actually want to make serpentine powder. I found a paper where they tested many medieval powder recipes, and I want to make a couple of the recipes.

 

[TobJohn]

I actually want to make serpentine powder. I found a paper where they tested many medieval powder recipes, and I want to make a couple of the recipes.

Please share your results!

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Earlwb,

There is a risk in surmising how it was done. quite a lot has been written and illustrated, on how these arms were used

I have carried a matchlock many a mile with my match lit at one or both ends, when hunting and expecting a shot. I never have had a problem, never blown myself up, so we should be careful in mixing theory with practice, until we have experience in both.

As for a boy carrying extra powder and such, this was not the case in military practice. The musketeer had a priming and main powder flask with which to replenish his cartridges. (This is a generalization, and actual practice varied over time and place)
As for re-filling of the main powder flask, barrels were available normally, guarded by men with clubs with which to knock down any individual running up for a refill, with match still glowing in hand!
These guards had a vested interest in not checking out Facebook whilst on duty!

all the best,
Richard.

 

[TFoley]

...the minimum charge to fill that chamber is roughly 2.3 drams. Is that a hefty charge? I never use drams, so I don't know. The gonne is right at .70 caliber.

I'm confused here. If you don't know what a dram is, how did you arrive at the measurement in the fust place?