Hardening a Frizzen

[jimikinz]

Hello,

I got a large Siler flint lock kit that I put together for a gun that I'm just about finished with. I've made two attempts at trying to harden the frizzen but cannot get any spark at all. I assume that it is not getting hard enough because the flint acutually leaves deep gouges and picks up edges of steel where it hits.

I used a little brick kiln and a torch and got it to "cherry red" and then went into a quart of oil per the instructions on the kit. I tried it twice, and nothing. I'm new to this metalurgy stuf, so I assume its me and not the material. The vagaries of the "cherry red" descriptor is probably my problem, right?

Can I salage the frizzen, or do I need to start over with a new one? What should I be doing differently? Can I buy a frizzen that is hardened (that sounds like the most appealing option right now :rotf: )?

Thanks!

 

[Vaino]

I've hardened a few Siler frizzens and use a 2-1/2" dia. short length of pipe w/ an end cap that has a few holes. A wire is attached to the frizzen through the pivot hole and the frizzen is placed in the pipe. I use a Mapp Gas torch and heat to an orange-red color for a few minutes and have the quenching oil very close by and quickly dunk in the oil and rapidly move the frizzen around in the oil. My oven temps have been "verified" and I temper the frizzen at 375 degrees for a half hour which yields a straw color. The toe and pivot areas are further drawn by a torch to a bright blue color. I think the orange-red color and an actual temper at 375 degrees ensures a nicely sparking frizzen. The pivot hole of a soft frizzen has to be drilled in assembly for a proper fit and a pre-hardened frizzen might not fit....Fred

 

[LRB]

I would say Flehto is about right. I think your main problem is that you are not getting it hot enough. In very dim light get it red-orange, hold a minute then quench it. I would suggest warmed canola oil over ATF however. Temper immediately.If you wait very long before tempering, the frizzen can crack from the stress of hardening. Use an oven themometer rather than trusting your range control. Have your oven pre-heated and ready.

 

[jimikinz]

Allright! I'll give 'er another shot. Thanks!

 

[rich pierce]

Cherry red is the single worst description of a color ever. Because that baby needs to be orange unless my eyes have been wrong since birth. The oil quench may work. Transmission oil warmed a little may work better. Try to scratch it with a new needle file before tempering.

 

[matt denison]

"Cherry red is the single worst description of a color ever"

I agree.

Cherry red can be anywhere from 950 to 1150 degrees. That's not near hot enough. A 1095 frizzen should be heated to 1550 degrees. Having a heat treating oven and having seen what 1550 degrees really looks like I will describe it as bright orange. Many a frizzen has been ruined by the "cherry red" and a propane torch.

 

[lowcsp]

Have a magnet handy when your frizzen is hot enough to quench red orange color the magnet should not stick to the frizzen.

 

[LRB]

Steel goes non-magnetic at 1414°. A magnet is only good for showing you where you are with the heat, and that you need more if you expect a good hardness. By the same token, 1550° is a bit of overkill and will cause unnecessary grain growth and a higher degree of thermal shock when quenched. 1550° will work, but the chances of cracking are greatly increased. After a proper normalizing process, 1095 should not need more than 1475°with a short soak at temp. My eyes see that as a bright tangerine, but everyone sees color slightly different.

 

[TARL01]

Wick, what do you mean by "a short soak at temp" please? Is this a quick quench and then leave out to temper in the air? Or a quick quench and place back in the fire to slowly cool as the fire goes out? Or something else?
Woody

 

[Zonie]

"Soak at temperature" just means the parts temperature is maintained for a period of time.

The needed time varies with the steel and its thickness.

 

[paulvallandigham]

You leave the part being hardened in its heat source, for a period of time- which varies with the type of steel, and its thickness. The time involves lets the molecules in the steel to rearrange themselves, so that stresses are relieved, and you are much less likely to create cracks in the metal when you quench( or "cool") it. The principle reason for leaving the part in the heat source( ie. oven, forge) is to allow it to harden completely through the metal, and not just on a surface. The thicker the steel the longer it needs to stay at heat to reach this optimum temperature throughout the piece. :thumbsup:

 

[LRB]

In the case of hardening a 1095 frizzen, the soak need not be longer than to get a good even heat in the battery plate portion, then quench in warmed thin oil. Then temper immediately. 1095 is very subject to crack if you wait too long to temper. If you do not trust yourself to read heat colors, and want to know the temp of your heat, you can sprinkle table salt on the face of the frizzen. When the salt melts, your heat is 1474°. The perfect quench heat for that steel.

 

[TARL01]

Thank you all. I had heard about the salt temp tecnique, but did not know the melting temp of salt. I very good thing to remember.
Woody

 

[paulvallandigham]

I know a knifemaker who has been heating his blades up in liquified salt for years before quenching, and tempering. I didn't know the temperature at which the salt melted, so thank you for that information. Now I understand why his grandfather taught him that method for hardening blades.

 

[ebiggs1]

I was messing around in Hallmark's temper department. It is a precise hardening system. This shows what varying the temperature does to color. I don't know what exact type metal these scraps are but I suspect they are, or may be 1095.
I got readings from RC 49 to RC 62. Plenty hard for a frizzen.

We use oil that is designed especially for quenching and is labeled “Quenching Oil”. I don't know where it is purchased from. The hottest setting I had on the oven was 1650 degrees, hot oven. And 550 “cold” oven. Varied lower from that setting.

 

[varsity07840]

I tried hardening a repro frizzen for an original
1816 lock and came away from the experience with the conclusion that for me at least it's a frustrating hit or miss deal, especially if you don't know what kind of steel you're dealing with. I had it half soled. Done deal.

Duane

 

[jimikinz]

Yeah...I may try that too, I have a ML magazine with an article on adding a sole. I just can't get the heat right, and honestly, I'm not interested in getting very in to the metalwork.

 

[David W.]

Did no one mention you need use Kasenit on the steel? Some may disagree, but salt water is good for quenching.

Follow the rest of the advise on heating and don't forget to temper the frizzen after the heat treatment.

 

[LRB]

Kasenit is not needed on a 1095 steel frizzen. A brine quench will harden 1095 to it's max, but is also risky as to cracking. Half soleing is not the answer either in this case. The half sole will also need to be hardened, and it should also be of 1095 steel, which the frizzen already is. Using the proper heat is the simplist answer. What happens inside the steel may be rocket science, but the process is not. Jim, if you feel lucky, bring the frizzen up as red as you can get it, then quench in salt water as suggested. 13oz of salt in a gallon of clean water, warmed to about 100°. Then check to see if a file will skip off it. If it does, temper it.

 

[wmaser]

I do it pretty much as you do, but I harden and temper with one heat. Bring to a bright orange , then, holding the frizzen by the pan cover dip only the strike plate in the brine for a second or two, then let cool. file should skip over the strike plate but cut the pan cover.