Hardening RB's

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jdixon

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After a deer hunt acouple of us who only hunt with RB's got to talking and were wondering about casting balls with a little tin or other alloy added to control expansion. Just enough to get a pass through shot for better blood trails ect. Very often we are finding the RB's do not make it all the way through a deer. They usually expand very well but, get stopped just under the skin on the opposite side of the animal. A little harder projectile would punch through that last layer of skin and yeild far better blook trails for tracking.

My question is, would a RB that is say 5% tin be so hard that it would effect accuracy? I know that I have seen this question answered before but, I can not seem to find that information searching the forum. Any ideas or experiences here?
 
It woud help a bit to know some additional info.

Distance shot taken at, cailber, charge in grains, 2F or 3F.
What kind of deer, white tail, mule deer, dressed weight.
Bullet diamater taken from the animal if saved.

Distance the animal went after being shot.

One gun maker (modern as well as traditional) would call that perfect balistic performance.

That is that all not some of the energy available in the bullet is staying in the animal.

This is desirable for the most part.
FWIW
If you harden the bullet so it does not flatten and passes thru most of the energy in the bullet stays in the bullet not the animal. Now you have a great blood trail and a 2 mile hike.
 
50 yds or less you should get a pass through with a good shot (heart/lung) with 50 cal. on up.

Solutions:

Better shot placement (e.g. practice)
Limit shots to reasonable ranges
Conicals
Larger caliber RB

As mentioned above more blood trail with harder RB might not bring the animal down any faster and can result in the animal traveling farther
 
J.R. said:
Very often we are finding the RB's do not make it all the way through a deer. They usually expand very well but, get stopped just under the skin on the opposite side of the animal.
Every deer I've killed with .54/.58/.62cal round balls have been complete pass throughs.

Curious to know what powder charge you're using?
 
J.R.

Oh boy, this is going to sound like a smart butt answer, but if you accurately hit the vital area you should always get pass through and a very short blood trail.

No offense intended but "accuracy" as opposed to "alloy" might be a better avenue of pursuit.

Of course, I guess it is possible that changing the alloy composition of a round ball could improve accuracy although I doubt it.

Osage
 
A bullet that stays inside your deer has done EXACTLY what it should. It is supposed to expend all its energy inside the deer, killing by shock and blood-loss rather than punching through and the energy expended elsewhere.
 
casting rb from wheel weight will give you a harder ball...but...you will need to develop a ball/patch combo for it. ww casts a tad larger and a bit lighter, thus allowance for the patch to engage the ball needs to be proved out.
I cast for my handguns using ww, and drop them directly into cold water. this gives my bullets that are like steel! I have recovered hot 44 mag cast bullets from pressure treated 6x6 that I swear you could reuse as found, they are that hard.

load development is key for the rb/patch combo thou!
 
any lung shot is gonna give you blood to follow after the deer runs a short ways. they blow it out nostrils/mouth. the only track I had to make was a too-far back run shot (running) I took and got both lung tips. after 100 yards or so began to find blood. it layed down about 1/4 mile further on nearly dead and I couped it with another shot. I won't take another running shot at that distance however. I think you should use soft lead balls, very likely they will shoot better (patch grip on)
 
Black Hand said:
A bullet that stays inside your deer has done EXACTLY what it should. It is supposed to expend all its energy inside the deer, killing by shock and blood-loss rather than punching through and the energy expended elsewhere.
Not quite that simple...this "inside" vs. "pass through" has it's roots in the high speed centerfire cartridge world, not patched round balls from muzzleloaders....not trying to initiate a debate on the subject of "inside stops" vs. "passthroughs"...just clarifying this notion of "dumping all energy inside" and why "inside stops" are actually not preferred in the muzzleloading world.

There are far greater benefits to a "passthrough" than an "inside stop" because the expanding soft lead ball has plowed through the maximum amount of vital organs across the full width of the body cavity and left two good holes for blood trailing if such a trail is needed.

The cloud over the theory that a ball which stops inside the cavity "dumps" all it's energy inside is this: "it really simply just means that the ball was not going fast enough to make it all the way across...and slowed down / ran out of energy somewhere inside and came to a halt".

Example comparisons:
I'm sure anyone would agree that a round lead ball stopping 3" inside the cavity cannot possibly do as much damage as one that goes through 6" of vitals before stopping...but they both stopped inside and "dumped all their energy".

Continuing that thought process, a ball stopping 10" across the body cavity has done significantly more damage to more vitals than one that stops in either of the previous 3" or 6" examples.

It also cannot be argued that that a ball which goes even further, stopping just bulging the hide on the far side...has made the longest wound channel, had the greatest amount of expansion, and has done the greatest amount of damage...compared to the previous 3", 6", or 10" examples by plowing through ALL the internals across the width of the body cavity that it traveled through...and again by definition dumping maximum energy inside.

All that remains then for a "ball that stops under the far side hide" is for it to have enough velocity/weight to penetrate the full width and then actually exit the far side hide, providing another outlet for blood loss/tracking if required.

A round ball plowing completely through / tearing up a full cavity width of muscles, organs, arteries, tissue, etc...and then exiting the far side hide will do significantly more destruction than one which is going so slow it simply slows down and stops only 25% of the way across...or 50%, or 75%. Yes, it can be said that in those cases the balls 'dumped all their energy inside" but it’s only because they didn't have enough energy to begin with.

A modern analogy is like a car going so slow that when it hits me it stops ('dumps all its energy') after crushing my bumper...vs...one hurtling through an intersection and T-bones my car, cutting it in half and killing everybody inside.
 
I also want a complete pass through on all my shots for the very reasons you listed. Two bullet holes in the animals = more blood on the ground. I'm getting old, and no longer enjoy crawling around on my knees looking for blood.
 
If you guys would learn to track footprints , and consider blood sign nothing more than " Icing on the cake" instead of the cake itself, you would not need a pass through shot to recover your game. I have tracked several deer for other hunters that were well hit, but just didn't leak enough blood to make much of a trail.

My good friend, Don, trailed a deer on his hands and knees for more than 300 yards finding no footprints on the hard packed mud, or any blood , but also finding no prints walking off the trail into grass and weeds, until he found a pin-sized drop of blood. Shortly after that, he found scuff marks, and after following them for about 20 yards, another pin size drop of blood. The track was leading to a known river ford, so Don decided to check the ford before going back to his hands and knees search, and he found the deer dead next to a deadfall on the bank, a few feet off the trail to the ford, and he also found his client's footprints where the client went to the ford twice, but never looked over in the direction where the deer was lying, quite visible from where his footprints were found. Ther hunter was a bit mifted at Don until Don showed him his own tracks, and showed him that he could not have possibly turned his head and looked over at the deer( and then showed him how the tracks would look like if he had!).

I have had pass through shots, and I have had shots that stopped under the off-side hide. No doubt two blood trails are easier to follow than one. And blood trails can be easier to follow than footprints, but not always. With a high hit, a lot of blood will collect inside the body before any of it gets out, and then the blood can be absorbed and held by the thick fur.
For you guys that insist on sitting with the Squirrel high in trees and shooting deer from way up there, you should be mindful of this little fact. That downward angle shot will require your slug or ball to go through a lot more body than that on the ground broadside shot.

A whitetail deer may be as little as 6 inches deep, up to about 12 inches deep( across the width of the chest) on the largest bucks. Most are going to be in the 6 to 8 inch range. That is not a lot of meat to pass a ball through to make it upset, and shock the system while destroying organs. A heart shot can be so low that the ball will pass through less than 5 inches of bone and tissue before exiting.

That is why using pure "soft " lead balls for whitetail deer is so important.
 
All I can say is that I have had more deer run with a complete pass-through (7mm Rem Mag) than when I hit them with a RB. The ones hit with the RB tend to fall over within a step or two, whether hit in the spine or through the vitals.

I have to agree with Paul V. on this one, good shot placement and the ability to follow a trail (even without blood) are essential. I, too have spent hours on my hands and knees looking for the slightest sign. I have also hit deer high that didn't leak a drop of blood for quite a distance, though they were dead on their feet before they took a step.
 
Here's the only round ball I ever recovered from a carcass. This was a frontal shot from about 11 or 12 yards while I was sitting on a stump that went right through the top of the heart and lodged in the hide on the far side of the rear leg (tunnelled around the bone like a .38 Spl will do). The deer dropped in it's tracks. As I remember the load was 90 gr 2Fg & a 0.018" patch, but may have been slightly less (I now shoot about 84 gr 2Fg as I found it more accurate).

IM000558.jpg


This was a cast ball using the scrap lead I get that thumbnails harder than pure lead. It has pipe solder and God know what all else in with it. The ball started out at .490" and is now .520" at the thickest. Not bad for 99% lengthwise penetration in a whitetail buck.

Note the rifling flats and the pattern of the cotton pressed into the lead. Proving cotton (at least when lube soaked) is harder than lead. :wink:
 
Cotton is very stout. It can be run through a pair of rollers (when making jewelry) and will easily impress its clear pattern on copper and brass.
 
Paul, or anyone else who can answer, how do you blood trail through terrain covered in four inches of leaves that are all splotched in red from their autumn colors, and wet from dew, or melted frost? I can't, unless the deer is bleeding heavy. Most often, I just try to listen for the final crash, then go look for the body. If I am horn hunting and shoot one, I aim for the shoulder to collapse him where he can't get up, and a high shoulder shot often sends bone fragments into the spine. Then he ain't going nowhere.
 
it's hard to do and no fun I admit. I've done it twice, aided once by tracks in soft earth and found blood blown out on thicket leaves as well as ground cover this established a direction he was going (went about 1/4 mile and layed down in thicket) the further he went the more blood there was. another there was spots of snow laying that had blood and tracks (wild hog went about 300 yards lung shot with a .45 ROA) it's really tough if they get into thicket. I won't take any more running shots past 30 yards.
 
Now keep in mind that I am new to muzzleloading, but here's my opinion.
A modern rifle bullet is small and fast. the perfect shot will stop just prior to exiting, and creating hydrostatic shock as well as blood loss.
A roundball needs to exit to create a blood trail. This to me is very similar to what is needed with an arrow while bow hunting.
As for following tracks, the difficulty depends on the type of ground and if there are any tracks already.

Jim
 
Often if you stand back and look 15 yds or so ahead you can see the scuffs of the deer running in the leaves.
 

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