Hardining a tomahawk

[nc_cooter]

I just finished a hawk made from an old half ax of unknown steel.It turned out great using the oil and temper method as described by Wick and Anvil 1231. I called Stuart(anvil 1231)and did what he said. I have made many knives but this is the first hawk. Non magnetic is not hot enough and the metal needs to soak a bit to make sure it is heated evenly. I tempered at 425f for two hours.
Mike

 

[Twice boom]

I just finished a hawk made from an old half ax of unknown steel.It turned out great using the oil and temper method as described by Wick and Anvil 1231. I called Stuart(anvil 1231)and did what he said. I have made many knives but this is the first hawk. Non magnetic is not hot enough and the metal needs to soak a bit to make sure it is heated evenly. I tempered at 425f for two hours.
Mike

Not quite.

Had you quenched in Brine it would have been more than hot enough and if all parts of the item being heated are none magnetic then it is hot enough to quench. The problem most have when trying to bring an item up to heat is with the heat source they are trying to do it with..
If it's with some kind of torch ,by the time they get one part up to heat it goes cold again when they try bringing to heat another part.
What happens then ,the item ends up with cold joints through out and why it breaks when dipped in the quenching media.

The 450 o for tempering a Hawk is about 200-250 o lower than ideal..

I know I too can read all the metallurgy books available to us ,but unless you have the latest electronic gizmo’s and atmospheric free heat sources , the books will not do you any good unless you have the means to confirm you are where you need to be at every step of the way..

Even though I am in agreement with Wick and friends , I am also adamant that if the gent looking for info for his Hawk has away to test his heating and for his known type steel, which I doubt that he does, then what I suggested for him and for anyone else in similar situation will get his job done and get it done quite well.

And all else is futal effort at something he can not prove,or diprove.
Just a thought for what it's worth.
Twice.

 

[anvil1231]

"And all else is futal effort at something he can not prove,or diprove."

So if I am understanding you right,forgive me I am not. Your saying that the way oldknfmkr. Quenched and tempered his axe is wrong. Even though he has been using it with very satifactory results.
:surrender:

 

[nc_cooter]

Yes, I have proved the method to my own satisfaction and so have many others. I have no wish to change your mind in any way. Each one has to sift through the available info and make choices. You have made your choice and I have made mine.
Stuart, thanks for the info. If this hawk was any better, I wouldn't even have to hold it. I would just tell it to go cut something while I sipped coffee around the fire. :wink:

 

[LRB]

You understand him right Stuart. You, me, and all the metallurgists in the world are all wrong. It makes me sad to think of all those who wasted their time and money in college to become metallurgists, when all you need is a bucket of brine and a magnet to heat treat any steel you might find. :idunno:
On a serious note, any of you reading these posts. You never want to quench a mystery steel in water, or brine except as a last resort, after oil quenching has failed. There are steels that are formulated for water or brine, but most often, even these are recommended by the manufacturer to be oil quenched when in the thickness of a knife blade, or small springs. Steel loses magnetism at 1414°. I know of no steel that will come to a full solution much below 1450°, and that is really pushing things. Poor solution = poor performance :thumbsup:

 

[Twice boom]

"And all else is futal effort at something he can not prove,or diprove."

So if I am understanding you right,forgive me I am not. Your saying that the way oldknfmkr. Quenched and tempered his axe is wrong. Even though he has been using it with very satifactory results.
:surrender:

Nope. Didn't say wrong anywhere in my post what I said was "not quite" as in not totally true. And went to say why it is not totally truth.Read again please.

If he has gotten good results it could be short lived . Not because the way he quenched or at the temp he chose to do it at. At 600o would have been a much better temp to temper at for a hawk than the 450o .Whether it chips or not will depend on what he strikes with it accidently.

Twice.



I d

 

[Twice boom]

I don't know this to be so, but it might be that you have not quenched in brine much to know how good of results you get..
Aside from that. I think you will find in my previous post that I agreed with you and your friends. It was a nice spill you gave on metallurgy, text book good..
Unfortunately what I said was missed by you and others. You took it mean that I was being disagreeable ,I was not. I was merely saying that with all that text book knowledge on metallurgy it will not do him a bit of good if he has now way of knowing what type of steel he is working with , and no way to test the heat in making sure he is quenching at the right temp. You also missed the part that I said when in doubt the Brine quench will har4den an O type steel --which he might be working with-- to where the Oil quench will not harden a W type steel ,which again might be what he worked with”¦We don’t know and neither do you”¦
You also chose not to comment on the FACT that brine will harden steel at a lower temp (None magnetic as an example) to where other quenching medias might need much higher temps to get the same hardness as Brine at lower temps.

You on the other hand did not commit yourself to any particular way or method ,instead of saying do this or do that you chose to give us a lesson on Metallurgy. Which he can not apply anyway.

So with out any sarcasm ,or malice I respectfully stand by what I said.
Twice.

 

[anvil1231]

Axes and hawks call for a dark blue temper on the color scale. Which is about the temp of 660 degrees held for 8 mins. This is basically what you said Twice Boom.
Now if you will back and read Mike's post of 425 degrees held for 2 hours will be the exact same thing. Or you can go 490 degrees held for 1 hour which is also the same. This IS per the heat treating data books.
And it does not take any fancy equipment other than the kitchen oven and a thermometer.

Wick and friends disagreement oringinally was the quenching medium not the temper. Unknown steel: Oil first then brine.

Stu

 

[J.D.]

Axes and hawks call for a dark blue temper on the color scale. Which is about the temp of 660 degrees held for 8 mins. This is basically what you said Twice Boom.
Now if you will back and read Mike's post of 425 degrees held for 2 hours will be the exact same thing. Or you can go 490 degrees held for 1 hour which is also the same. This IS per the heat treating data books.

Huh? From what I have learned about plain steels, it isn't the length of time a part is in the oven, it's the temp, at temper. A thin part tempered at 450 degrees for two hours reaches the same hardness as an identical piece tempered at the same temp for 30 minutes, using the old rule of thumb of a minimum od 15 minutes, at heat, for each 1/4" of thickness, donchaknow.

I agree with tempering the 'hawk in the blue range. I also agree with quenching in warmed oil first. If that doesn't work, then quench in something faster...like brine with about 1/4" of light oil floating on the surface to reduce the shock of the steel going into the brine.

God bless

 

[Twice boom]

Axes and hawks call for a dark blue temper on the color scale. Which is about the temp of 660 degrees held for 8 mins. This is basically what you said Twice Boom.
Now if you will back and read Mike's post of 425 degrees held for 2 hours will be the exact same thing. Or you can go 490 degrees held for 1 hour which is also the same. This IS per the heat treating data books.
And it does not take any fancy equipment other than the kitchen oven and a thermometer.

Wick and friends disagreement oringinally was the quenching medium not the temper. Unknown steel: Oil first then brine.

Stu

Oil will do fine if you know that the steel you are working with is of the O type . I’ve read nowhere that OP knows what he is working with, did you.? Nor did he say he has any way of knowing what temp to quench at or how to tell when he arrived at said temp. And being that Brine will harden steel at a much lower temp than oil ,all steel except the A type , I suggested the brine at none magnetic state . Can’t fail ..
Now as far as Mike and his Hawk. I don’t have a Metallurgy book handy, nor do I know the type of steel he used to make it with that I can look up. Nor would I have said anything to him if he didn’t jump in to discredit what I and many others know about using the magnet to quench at.. None the less the Blue color is correct which he could have gotten it at around 560o out of his forge in a bout ten minutes or less with the proper fire”¦

Twice.

 

[anvil1231]

Dang, Now I am going to have to do a recall on about 20 years worth of hawks and axes....People ain't goin a be happy :blah: :rotf:


Big Deutscher apologies for all the going astray and good luck with your axe head. I am bowing out this one. :hatsoff:

 

[nc_cooter]

Went to the shop about 30 min ago and performed a test. Put a piece of 1/8" O1 drill rod from Fastenal on the side of a 2x6 held in a vise and gave it a whack. I also sliced a piece of note pad paper before the test. While not as clean as one made with one of my knives, it shows the hawk has a fairly sharp edge. The edge did not chip, just a slight dent as I expected.
Here is a pic.

 

[Twice boom]

Went to the shop about 30 min ago and performed a test. Put a piece of 1/8" O1 drill rod from Fastenal on the side of a 2x6 held in a vise and gave it a whack. I also sliced a piece of note pad paper before the test. While not as clean as one made with one of my knives, it shows the hawk has a fairly sharp edge. The edge did not chip, just a slight dent as I expected.
Here is a pic.

You just proved my point that the right temepiring color is what I said, BLUE, for Hawks and it maters not whether you cook it up in your kitchen stove for two hours or ten minutes over the fire of your forge . Had you said that you tempered it to a blue I would not had a word to say other than to agree.
Still though, I would have disagreed with you on the Brine and Magnet as I do now. Next test you do ,might be one quenching in Brine . Just make the brine salty enough to float an egg and harden at none magnetic state .That way we will both know what we are talking about..
Thanks for the effort.

Twice.

 

[nc_cooter]

WOW! As anvil1231 said, I am out of this one.
The "Age of Reason" has truly passed.

 

[LRB]

Me too! :surrender:

 

[Twice boom]

WOW! As anvil1231 said, I am out of this one.
The "Age of Reason" has truly passed.

Aint that the truth.

I'm out of this one too.
Twice.

 

[cutshurt]

Do not quench in water!!!! high carbon steels dont like it. Try veg oil or Transmission fluid. Heat to a cherry red and Quench, temper in the oven at 450-500, for an hour.

My own tempering method is a bit diferent then I have discribed here but this will work.

Darrel

 

[gmarc]

Mates:

It is also possible that the head in question is CAST Steel. The Germans were some of the first to do this. Cast steels are often in the upper carbon-content range of what are classified as "tool Steels" I ahve repaired many cast steel heads in my shop and the high carbon content of these steels made possible the drop forging of mass-produced tool heads that can be marketed and used in the "as forged" condition and not require additional heat treat, other than normalizing/stress relief.

I would STRONGLY advise against a water quench with this metal. :nono: I WOULD advise a generous preheat in an oven, transfer to a forge, forging to shape and then heat the entire head to low orange and allow to SLOW COOL in the forge until room temp. THen test with a sharp file edge. If the file just cuts with some skittering, my suspicions about the head being cast steel are confirmed, in my opinion.

Remember what the original tool was made to do, and this provides insight into its manufacture and materials.

Grant

 

[J.D.]

Mates:

It is also possible that the head in question is CAST Steel. The Germans were some of the first to do this. Cast steels are often in the upper carbon-content range of what are classified as "tool Steels" I ahve repaired many cast steel heads in my shop and the high carbon content of these steels made possible the drop forging of mass-produced tool heads that can be marketed and used in the "as forged" condition and not require additional heat treat, other than normalizing/stress relief.

I would STRONGLY advise against a water quench with this metal. :nono: I WOULD advise a generous preheat in an oven, transfer to a forge, forging to shape and then heat the entire head to low orange and allow to SLOW COOL in the forge until room temp. THen test with a sharp file edge. If the file just cuts with some skittering, my suspicions about the head being cast steel are confirmed, in my opinion.

Remember what the original tool was made to do, and this provides insight into its manufacture and materials.

Grant

Best advice yet. :bow: