Harrisonburg VA 1764

[54ball]

Mr Howard,
Nathan covered most of it.

The Feather Gun is an old Rifle once owned by the late Reeves Goering from the same general region as the Faber and the Woodsrunner. Some say it could have been made by the same hand or at least the same "school" as the Woodsrunner.

School is a modern term to link gun smiths by region, town, county or family. Schools have their district style.

Wallace Gusler the first master gunsmith at Colonial Willaimsburg and noted longrifle historian uses the term step toe for step wrist.
Personally I consider later very slight step wrists to be step toes.

The Kibler is great for you. It fits what you want.
be very careful with it as it's nearly to finished dimensions and you have to handle it like a finished rifle. They are very delicate with the barrel out of the stock....nothing like a modern gun. Too, be very mindful taking the barrel in and out of the stock.
In other words, Don't Hoss it.

I'm just a student of these guns. I can kind of, sort of, put one together. I'm below apprentice level so I'm by no means a big shot.
Mr Pierce, ElNathan....Those guys are big shots. They know their stuff.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

BIG thanks for the history of the area. Those were puzzle pieces that I lacked. Any idea of the names of those gunsmiths or any pictures available of their work?

Glad to help Henry, good luck on your build. You can try searching here on The Muzzleloading Forum for 18th Century gun makers in Staunton and Winchester and elsewhere in the Valley, there may be several informative threads on the subject. Also try searching for gun makers in the Shenandoah Valley. I hope that I am not breaking forum rules here, but a good bet to find info on Shenandoah Valley gun makers will be found at American Longrifles Forum:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php

There have been a number of excellent threads there over the years, including good references on another required need for the study of Valley rifles - BOOKS. You can't do without them.

And I almost forgot to add, the Bowman family name is still common here in the Valley, you may well have more cousins than you realize. :wink:

 

[Artificer]

I cannot thank you enough for the wonderful close up pics of these two rifles, that show so many of the features that are so much more difficult to see in RCA. :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

Faber Rifle:

I never realized the trigger on the Faber Rifle was that straight. That straight of a trigger is still pretty popular in some International Rifles where the rules allow it.

Was the long forward extension on the buttplate tang meant to keep down on damage on top of the cheekpiece or was it just decoration?

I really like the Shell Carving around the breech plug tang, though I have to say Dave Person does a better job on many of his guns.

I also very much like the way the "Aprons" or lock panels are carved and especially forward of the lock plate.

Does the Wood Patch Box cover not look like the rest of the styling of this rifle? I wonder if it was a replacement?

Though you can still see the original file marks on the inside of the trigger bow, the whole trigger guard looks more polished than the Woodsrunner rifle?

Woodsrunner Rifle:
Note the crooked buttplate on the Woodsrunner. The plate is inline the the barrel....not the butt cast off. Was this a mistake?

I'm not so sure it was a mistake? Wouldn't the way the buttplate is inletted cocked back to the left a ways, more naturally fit into the shoulder with the cast off in the stock?

The inside of the trigger bow really shows the original shaping file marks and there is much less polishing on the inside of the whole trigger guard.

Unless I'm mistaken and I could be, it seems neither of these rifles have much curl/figure in the wood? Was that done deliberately to make the stocks stronger/more long lasting?

OK, for fear of creating a "Frankenstein" rifle, would it be correct or way out of line to have a buttplate similar to the Woodsrunner Rifle on a "Faber Like" Rifle?

Gus

P.S. I doubt I would ever have noticed the "canoe bow" on the Faber Rifle behind the cheek piece, had you not mentioned it.

 

[Artificer]

The Woodsrunner rifle seems a little later than the Faber rifle to me but that might just be because it’s styling is Germanic and the Woodsrunner rifle is more English and sleek.

I am not nearly as good as you and many others, but I was thinking the same thing when looking at the rear of the Apron/Lock Panel behind the rear of the lock plate and other things.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

P.S. to my post above.

Does the Acanthus leaf style carving of the Woodsrunner Rifle around the breech plug tang make it more English in styling?

I know English furniture styles in much of the 18th century quite often used shell carving as ornamentation, so perhaps not?

Gus

 

[54ball]

Gus,
When I have more time I'll try my best to answer more of your questions.
This is something to think about ; not just Rifles but in many many aspects of English and English Colonial culture, starting with William of Orange and especially the Hanoverian Accessio......

What is Germanic and what is English?

Great Britain has German Monarch to this day and will have Germanic monarchs for the forseable future. George V changed the house name to Windsor in 1917.

 

[rich pierce]

What is English and what is Germanic? 1760’s English rifles often look like English fowlers and trade guns. Ask Dave. Sleek, with a long wrist extending down the buttstock. Often, no cheekpiece. Guards on rifles may be fowler style, or not. Buttplate are often fowler style with a stepped tang like we see on a Bess.

Germanic rifles of the 1760s usually have a prominent cheekpiece, a guard with the rail well off the wrist, a shorter wrist that swells into the buttstock, and other visual features easy to see but hard to describe.

Engraving styles of English and Germanic rifles of the period are often quite different.

These are broad generalizations.

 

[Artificer]

It has been written that when George I was actually holding court in England, that he did not speak English and German was the language of his court. Now THAT must have sent the English Nobility scrambling for German/English Dictionaries and German Translators and Language Tutors.... :rotf:

So indeed the mix of cultures went on very early in the 18th century.

Of course with period "Bespoke Work" for the custom building of rifles, a person could have ordered his rifle with a blend of period styles depending on IF and HOW MUCH he knew of other styles.

Gosh I sure do like the Faber rifle, though.

Gus

 

[Henry Bowman]

Well, I just ordered RCA, Vol II. My lovely wife has hinted that Vol I may appear late in December. Perhaps I will soon possess the ability to intelligently articulate my interrogative ramblings.

 

[Henry Bowman]

So, I've thought a lot about adding the shell at the tab today. My thoughts then went to putting a similar shell design on the wood patchbox cover for a thumb hole to release the cover (I promise to learn the proper terminology soon - I ordered the RCA book this evening), and perhaps one behind the rear thimble. Then, add an embellishment at the cheek (similar to Tim Williams' Haymaker gun) in roughly the same carving style rather than the Farber's canoe bow or the Woodsrunner's ovarian-looking thing. So, then I started thinking about the English v. German thing and I was amazed that the conversation turned that direction during the day today. The DNA shows that my paternal ancestry is largely from the northern British islands so, I think I should lean to British influence for this project. So, questions for the group:
1. Does this plan sounds disrespectful to the art?
2. What is the proper term for those teardrop-shaped carvings that are on either side of the Farber just behind the lock plates?
3. Are those tear-drop shapes essential or optional for a respectful design that attains my goal?
4. Would it be disrespectful to work a subtle hot-rod flame job into the carvings? :grin: (No, I'm not serious!)

 

[Artificer]

"3. Are those tear-drop shapes essential or optional for a respectful design that attains my goal?"

I don't know whether or not those shapes are essential to your goal. Hopefully someone else can comment on that.

I use the 18th century British term "Apron" for the wood area surrounding the lock. I don't know what the 18th century German term was for it. Most people use the term/s "Lock Panel/s," today, it seems.

Many, if not most people call the tear drop shape/s at the rear of the Apron/s (Lock Panel/s) - the beavertail/s or less often the "Tear Drop" shapes as you mentioned.

Both the beavertail at the rear of the Apron and the rounded/curved step-down at the front of the Apron, were well known to the English at least two if not three decades before the Faber Rifle. The Pattern 1730 "King's Musket" or what we have come to call the Brown Bess, had Lock Apron Carving like that. For example, it is clearly shown in the photo of Brown Bess locks as Number 1. at the top of the photo in the following link: http://jaegerkorps.org/NRA/The Redcoat's Brown Bess.htm

What I don't know is if the English got the idea for that Apron carving from the German States and they may well have.

HOWEVER, I don't know how often such Apron carving was used on English or English Style rifles in the period.

I normally don't use repro guns as examples, but in this case the "English Gentleman's Sporting Rifle, circa 1740-1750" listed in the link below, more closely follows what Rich Pierce mentioned in his post above and does not have this type of Apron carving. BTW, it seems not many of these rifles came to America in the period. http://www.flintlocks.com/rifles05.htm

The "Mark Silver - Virginia Rifle" shown in the link below has small beavertails behind the lock aprons as part of the blend of German and English styling. http://www.flintlocks.com/rifles04.htm

Now a thousand apologies for using two repro rifles to describe/show some things, but I don't have online access to original rifles that would show these things.

Gus

 

[Elnathan]

So, I've thought a lot about adding the shell at the tab today. My thoughts then went to putting a similar shell design on the wood patchbox cover for a thumb hole to release the cover (I promise to learn the proper terminology soon - I ordered the RCA book this evening), and perhaps one behind the rear thimble. Then, add an embellishment at the cheek (similar to Tim Williams' Haymaker gun) in roughly the same carving style rather than the Farber's canoe bow or the Woodsrunner's ovarian-looking thing. So, then I started thinking about the English v. German thing and I was amazed that the conversation turned that direction during the day today. The DNA shows that my paternal ancestry is largely from the northern British islands so, I think I should lean to British influence for this project. So, questions for the group:
1. Does this plan sounds disrespectful to the art?
2. What is the proper term for those teardrop-shaped carvings that are on either side of the Farber just behind the lock plates?
3. Are those tear-drop shapes essential or optional for a respectful design that attains my goal?
4. Would it be disrespectful to work a subtle hot-rod flame job into the carvings? :grin: (No, I'm not serious!)

Are you talking about this carving design?: https://williamsflintlocks.com/adamhaymaker/

You had me a bit confused because the original Haymaker rifle is actually pictured in the article I linked above, but the original actually has Haymaker's initials as the carving there. Kind of a unique feature to that rifle that most folks aren't keen on replicating. The carving on William's version is a interpretation of a standard Lancaster-style C-scroll. I think Williams was inspired by another rifle attributed to the Haymaker shop that has an incised and simplified version (Williams is relief carved) of the C-scroll. It is pictured in Shumway's books, but unfortunately in volume 1 under the Lancaster section (rifle number 71), as Shumway thought it was a Lancaster piece.

Lancaster rifles were produced in great numbers and probably traded up and down The Great Wagon Road that ran through the Valley of Virginia between PA in the north and the Carolinas to the south, so it isn't too surprising to see a bit of Lancaster influence on a rifle made in the Valley of Virginia - you see Lancaster influence on valley rifles made after the war.

The C-scroll is a 1770s design, though. If you want to shoot for a 1770s era Virginia look, a "local variant" of the Lancaster C-scroll is quite plausible. Evidence for 1760s rifles, particularly Virginia-made pieces, is pretty scarce. By 1775 or so you have a lot more options to choose from.

As for the little beavertails on the lock moldings, you don't have to put them in if you just don't like them. They are found on the majority of pieces, though - a fairly standard design element spanning various schools during the 18th century - and those that don't have them tend to be the ones that have little carving in general. If you are doing a fully carved piece you are probably on safer ground including them, but if it has just a little basic carving you could get away with leaving them off.

As for the English vs. German thing, the Kibler rifle is already fairly English in its architecture, IMHO. If you want to add more English influence, then you might think about using an English shell design or something around the barrel tang, where English guns were typically carved. English guns weren't typically carved along the butt, though, so by necessity carving there is going to come from the Germanic side of the ledger. I'd just look and see what the originals look like and not worry about national influences on carving designs, though. Regional American developments are going to be a lot more important, I think.

 

[rich pierce]

Good advice above especially about regional styles. I don’t like mixing and matching styles. Also good advice about going English on the Kibler kit. However it takes an experienced hand and eye to “transform” a Kibler kit’s architecture subtly to evoke anything quite specific and different, and like any kit, you’d be stuck with the hardware it comes with.

Will mildly disagree that a C scroll cheekpiece carving design is 1770s. It’s found on all the early Bethlehem and Christians Spring rifles dating from the 1750s onward into the 1770s.

 

[Elnathan]

Will mildly disagree that a C scroll cheekpiece carving design is 1770s. It’s found on all the early Bethlehem and Christians Spring rifles dating from the 1750s onward into the 1770s.

Yes, you are right. None of the Moravian carving really sticks in my mind except for the critters, for some reason!

 

[Elnathan]

BTW, I just discovered upon watching it last night that Gusler's video on relief carving that Muzzleloader Magazine sells contains a section on Augusta County rifles from the 1775-85 era. Two of the three rifles he uses as models are illustrated in the article linked above as 4 and 5, and the third is RCA 133. If that style appeals you it might be worth checking out that video.

Augusta County school tended towards fairly elaborate carving, evidently so it might be a bit too much of a beginner, but 133 is folksy and simplified enough (possibly an apprentice effort!) that it might be feasible.

 

[54ball]

Nathan brings out a great point about the Great Wagon Road.
I'll expand a little further on that.

Starting in Lancaster PA the Road goes through Emmitsburg MD to Winchester VA and down the Valley of Virginia. (Va-Jin-Ya) It goes down the valley through present New Market, Blacksburg, Roanoke....down through Southwest Virginia into then Western North Carolina....Watauga and the Cumberland Gap....the Southern Gateway to Kentucky (That Dark and Bloody Ground)

In the study of the American Longridle you will see these place names again and again.....
Lancaster
Christian Springs
Emmitsburg
Winchester
The Valley
SW Virginia
Watauga
The Cumberland Gap

While not not the only route, this was a main route of the American Rifle Culture especially into what becomes the South and more Specifically the Trans-Appalachian South the gateway eventually to the Cotton States.

You see, Virginia is the mother of the South.

The more Northerly (Virginia) Route was over the mountains to the New River...Gateway to the Ohio where the French built Fort Duquense (Du-Kane) where the Allegheny and Monongahela rivers make the Ohio. (Pittsburgh PA)
Here a young Virginia officer fires on a party of French messengers....starting a World War in 1754.

This culture was made up Ulster Scots or Scot-Irish, English, German and eventually mingling with Native Americans or what many of them prefer to be called, American Indians.

These people of Scot-Irish-English-German-American Indian Culture were in Territory claimed by England carrying rifles (those who owned rifles) made by primarily by German smiths with a mix of English and German styling.

PA rifles tend to be more Germanic. VA rifles tend to be more English but this is definitely not a set rule.

As you can see...The more you study these, the less you really know and that's OK.

A noted Longrifle Historian was asked, what is the most accurate history of the development of the American Long rifle? His reply.....There is none.

My main point of this... Anywhere along the Great Wagon Road and other Routes the PA long rifle was found. If not found proper in the flesh....by influence.

The Overthemountain Men (Wataugans) at Kings Mountain in 1780 are noted as having...Deckhard or Dreppard Rifles. These were undoubtedly Jacob Dickert Rifles or rifles in that style or a style influenced by Lancaster.

Another thing too.....time.
Whats true in 1780 or 90 may not apply to 1765. This is another thing to consider.

Lastly and I feel this is very important for you.

It's about the rifle not the decoration. There's plenty of plain rifles. Don't sacrifice or get so hung up on decoration that basic construction and architecture of the rifle suffers.

There is no greater carver in the Rev War and early Golden Age than Issac Haines. His work is fine English quality. That's a pretty big deal for an American longrifle.
In Recreating the American Longrifle is an original rifle by Haines with zero....zero carving!

It is magnificent. The architechture is truly beautiful.

There is nothing wrong in building this rifle with no decoration what so ever.

 

[excess650]

Am I incorrect in thinking that the wagon road actually made its way from what is now the Lehigh Valley, through Reading and to Lancaster? We know that Valentine Beck relocated from Christian Springs to Bethabara in 1762.

The shell or fan seen behind the tang of some of the Virginia rifles mentioned is also seen on rifles attributed to Wolfgang Haga of Reading. Haga was IN Reading (which wasn't formed until 1748) and working as a gunsmith when he blew up the shop in 1752. This was about the same time J P Beck was born (1751) and when Jacob Dickert might have begun his apprenticeship.

 

[Henry Bowman]

Thank you. I may have been overcome by ethusiasm. Since this is my first build ever, I should probably keep it minimal - maybe just a notch on the patchbox cover.

Now you have my interest in the Kings Mountain guns. While there is no record of my ancestor being there during the famous battle, we do have records of him not mustering in Augusta Co. in 1767 and then one of his sons was born in the Watauga River Settlement in 1782. He was a magistrate there not long afterward until he moved into Madison County KY in the early 1790s. He followed the trail for sure. There are survey documents with his name and Boone's. Old Dan'l submitted a deposition to the court from Missouri defending the property line that sold to my ancestor. There's a lot about him that we'll probably never know - like what style of guns he carried. But, I sure enjoy learning more - and I sure appreciate how everyone is sharing all this information.

I was seriously into genealogy for a season. A big life event changed that path for another season. I've always been fascinated by history, the Appalachian Mountains, and that period of time.

My RCA book is supposed to show up next week. I'm giddy as a kid at Christmas awaiting it.

BTW, I fitted the barrel and trigger plate last night. I found it to be a little harder than Jim made it look in his video. Those videos are very helpful.

I hope that everyone has a great evening!

 

[rich pierce]

Here is a plain, early Valley of Virginia rifle built with an older, recycled lock.

 

[Artificer]

NICE Rifle, Rich. Thanks for showing it.

What time period do you date it to?

Gus